Incorrect VIN plate

Marken · Veteran Member

Incorrect VIN plate

dabbler · Guru

The actual TBM is really all that matters. Your tow vehicle and tow bar needs to be rated for a higher wt than the actual TBM when laden. TBM will vary with loading and wt distribution ie water, lpg tanks etc. Importantly any modifications you have made could change wts. You state you made it your own which suggests changes (even minor changes can affect balance and TBM). Personally if Tare when you received the van is correct on VIN plate it's up to you to configure your load so TBM and ATM are within your vehicle's legal limits. I think you're throwing money away for no real life gain.

Greg 1 · Guru

Your VIN plate maybe correct. The ball weight shown on that is the unladen weight. Mine shows 180kg but fully laden, the actual weight is just over 300kgs. The important figure is what is the max ball weight of your car and towbar. Thats what you can tow legally, whichever is the lesser. You also must not exceed the ATM as shown on the plate or the GTM. Some vehicles are limited by their GCM, the total weight of car and van, which should be in your hand book. You often cannot load car and/or van to their individual limits due to the GCM limitations. Best thing is fully load car and van including passengers and have the lot weighed. Then you know what action if any to take. I have a principal that if I haven't used something, I don't take it again, with the exception of tools and spares.

montie · Guru

Marken wrote:
We need a bit of advice from the world of caravanners.
We have just (on the first day of Melbournes stage three lockdown back in July) bought a new caravan. Having spent the lockdown periods "making it ours" (a few little nice additions and modifications) now its time to prepare for travel. This involves loading up the supplies and everything we need for a few short trips and then for longer trips. On checking the weight with our Reich CWC we find that we are overloaded on the front end and very close to the max ball weight for our Prado. This is without the genny on the genny slide, without tools in the toolbox and jerry cans in the jerry can holders. So out it all comes, back to tare weight. We now find that the ball weight stated on the vin plate is grossly understated. A call to the supplier resulted in comments like "cant possibly happen" and "I weigh every caravan myself, personally". So in preparation for a battle we went to a local weighbridge but find an accuracy of + or - 20 kgs for a ball weight is not close enough especially to try and substantiate any sort of claim. We have now booked for a professional weighing service to give us the exact weights that we have (within 1kg). This will happen this week.
What we would like to get advice on is what should our expectations be from a confrontation with the supplier? Correcting the vin plate will not fix the problem. Re-engineering the caravan would be an expensive and lengthy process. (We want to get away as soon as lockdown ends). A full refund? That would mean back to caravan shopping (although reducing the dealers by one). Sorry this has been a bit long winded but any suggestions would be appreciated .
Many thanks
Marken

Marken,

The plated ball weight is the measured weight for the dry empty van when it leaves the factory. It bears no relevance to the measured ball weight of the loaded van which is something you need to manage yourself. Load distribution is important plus water tank location.

travelyounger · Guru

Hi Marlin You have not mentioned your tare or tow ballweight and or if you filled your water tanks which will make a big difference to your ball weight my van was 160 ballweight unloaded and 350 loaded maybe you need a tug with a better tow ball weight Cheers

hufnpuf · Senior Member

Marken wrote:
Re-engineering the caravan would be an expensive and lengthy process. (We want to get away as soon as lockdown ends). A full refund? That would mean back to caravan shopping (although reducing the dealers by one).

Whatever you do, you probably won't be getting away ASAP.

You can't really know what needs to happen with the van (if anything, it's possible that you are mistaken that there's a problem) until advised by a professional, but finding somebody competent, qualified and trustworthy could be difficult and take time, and you'd have to pay for that advice, so there would definitely be expense and time in getting assessments and reports. If the supplier doesn't accept your reports, they'll get theirs and so on and so on. It COULD be: assessment-this is what needs to happen-work done quickly-fixed, the question then becomes do you still have confidence/trust in the supplier. If you don't, you probably won't be happy with the van, because there may always be that feeling that something's wrong.

IF there's an identified problem and they'll refund you, I'd do that. You'll save all the expense and hassle and time of trying to suss out/sort out the problem. Just start again. BUT, that too probably won't get you away ASAP.

I know that the market here has high demand and consequent limited supply. ALL of the new caravans at the caravan place were sold, and secondhand vans are fetching good prices, but there seem to be a lot offered for sale. My guess from looking at vans recently is that grabbing a good secondhand van would be the quickest way of getting going, if it comes to replacing the van you've bought.

Summary:

Get your weight assessment, see what it says. There's nothing to talk about unless it's truly "off". When you say you "made it your own" and then took everything out, did that involve any work on the structure?

Talk to the supplier, see what they say/suggest. If this is a "one-off" problem with only your van and you trust the supplier, talk about fixing it, IF fixing it is relatively straightforward. If it isn't "one-off" and you lose faith in the supplier, talk about a refund and walk. If you did any structural modifications, even if you took them out, they probably won't give you a full refund.

As for expectations, they can't be predicted, you really need to wait and see what happens and take it from there. It'll depend on who and what you are dealing with, and how you react as well, as to how it will go.

yobarr · Guru

travelyounger wrote:
Hi Marlin You have not mentioned your tare or tow ballweight and or if you filled your water tanks which will make a big difference to your ball weight my van was 160 ballweight unloaded and 350 loaded maybe you need a tug with a better tow ball weight Cheers

Good points here,but until Ken supplies his ATM,GTM and axle ratings there is not a lot we can do.As you suggest,I suspect that the Prado may not be up to the task,as rear axle capacity is a miserable 1800kg.(Dependent on model),and a 250kg (maximum) ball weight puts around 360-370kg extra onto the car's rear axle.With the genny,tools and jerry cans,things would not be good.If Ken is able to submit photos of compliance plate on both car and van,meaningful advice can be given.A far as accurate towball weight is concerned,the bathroom scales method is very accurate,and easily done at home.Ball weight at tare means little.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 8th of November 2020 10:29:15 AM

Whenarewethere · Guru

You need to weight everything. Kitchen scales have about a 2 gram accuracy, anything over use the bathroom scales, but do a few things together to increase accuracy.

Do not forget to add things like floor mates, electrical cables for mobile phones, AA batteries. It all adds up.

I had 24kg of small items not including food or cloths.

See fourth post in this thread of my spreadsheet. It is frightening stuff!

https://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t65110614/towing-weights-again/

montie · Guru

Am I missing something here, Marken is saying he has an incorrect Vin Plate because the plated ball weight is being exceeded by the loaded ball weight.

Nothing to do with ball rating of his tug .
As I have already explained the loaded ball weight will always exceed the plated weight so this something he needs to manage. There is nothing wrong with the Vin Plate.

yobarr · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
Your VIN plate maybe correct. The ball weight shown on that is the unladen weight. Mine shows 180kg but fully laden, the actual weight is just over 300kgs. The important figure is what is the max ball weight of your car and towbar. Thats what you can tow legally, whichever is the lesser. You also must not exceed the ATM as shown on the plate or the GTM. Some vehicles are limited by their GCM, the total weight of car and van, which should be in your hand book. You often cannot load car and/or van to their individual limits due to the GCM limitations. Best thing is fully load car and van including passengers and have the lot weighed. Then you know what action if any to take. I have a principal that if I haven't used something, I don't take it again, with the exception of tools and spares.

Great post Greg....the limitation will be the rear axle capacity,but that possibly can be managed if we have all relevant details to work with.Cheers

hufnpuf · Senior Member

montie wrote:
Am I missing something here, Marken is saying he has an incorrect Vin Plate because the plated ball weight is being exceeded by the loaded ball weight.

Nothing to do with ball rating of his tug .
As I have already explained the loaded ball weight will always exceed the plated weight so this something he needs to manage. There is nothing wrong with the Vin Plate.

If I understand correctly, no, he is saying that the tare ball weight in reality does not match that stated on the VIN. He originally found a high ball weight after loading, but he's removed everything and is talking about the tare weight.

iana · Guru

Have I missed what sort of towed vehicle are we talking about, some of those camper trailers seem to have all the loading forward towards the A frame.

montie · Guru

hufnpuf wrote:
montie wrote:
Am I missing something here, Marken is saying he has an incorrect Vin Plate because the plated ball weight is being exceeded by the loaded ball weight.

Nothing to do with ball rating of his tug .
As I have already explained the loaded ball weight will always exceed the plated weight so this something he needs to manage. There is nothing wrong with the Vin Plate.
If I understand correctly, no, he is saying that the tare ball weight in reality does not match that stated on the VIN. He originally found a high ball weight after loading, but he's removed everything and is talking about the tare weight.

But hasn't he modified the van since he took delivery.?

Just to clarify..the plated ball weight is the measured weight for the dry empty van. This number is then subtracted from the ATM to establish the plated GTM. It is not a rating and there is no legal requirement for a manufacturer to stamp it on the plate at all.

The ball weight that matters is the measured weight when the van is loaded with full tanks etc.. This weight must not legally exceed the tug or tow bar rating and as most vanners are aware requires careful management.

-- Edited by montie on Sunday 8th of November 2020 11:05:55 AM

hufnpuf · Senior Member

montie wrote:
But hasn't he modified the van since he took delivery.?

He said "So out it all comes, back to tare weight". It isn't clear what he added/took out.

Whenarewethere · Guru

montie wrote:
But hasn't he modified the van since he took delivery.?

Yes he has & hasn't stated how many kilograms have been added.

'Having spent the lockdown periods "making it ours" (a few little nice additions and modifications) now its time to prepare for travel. This involves loading up the supplies and everything we need for a few short trips and then for longer trips.'

Marken · Veteran Member

Thank you everyone for so many replies to our problem. Firstly let me clarify some points.
The vehicle specs are irrelevant to our problem. The caravan was chosen as it was (and still is) within the 3t max towing weight. The 300kg tow ball loading will be exceeded if we ignore the problem. I did say that "out it all comes, back to tare weight" so any discussion from here will be about a caravan at tare weight. The mods we made were all superficial (washing machine out, towel rails in,jerry can holders on the rear bar, carpet squares in the floor) and all have been reversed and no structural alterations at all. At tare the weight recorded for the ball weight (correct towing height, no jockey wheel and measured under the tow point) was 60kg OVER that stated on the vin plate. The wide variance in the weighbridge accuracy, +- 20kg, could mean that the prob is not as bad or a lot worse but still a problem!!
We are wondering if anyone else has had such an issue and how it was dealt with by the dealer. BTW the specs (ball weight and tare) on the info leaflet given at the caravan show when we ordered it are still below what the vin plate states.
An update with accurate weights will be forthcoming on Tuesday after attendance by Mac from Weigh Station.

montie · Guru

hufnpuf wrote:
montie wrote:
But hasn't he modified the van since he took delivery.?
He said "So out it all comes, back to tare weight". It isn't clear what he added/took out.

But the ball weight at tare is irrelevant, how is establishing that going to help with an overloaded ball download. Surely he needs to look at the fully loaded van and manage his ball weight from there.

Assessing the weight distribution in the van, water tank positioning, additional weight on the drawbar or front boot are just some of the issues he needs to investigate to manage ball download within the legal limits.

The only time ball weight at tare would be relevant is if he intends to tow an empty van around which is highly unlikely.

iana · Guru

Just a quick question, does the van have the water tanks ahead of the axles, and how many are there, and did you weigh the van when they were full.
I am saying that because we had two water tanks ahead of the axles, and a grey water tank behind. With both water tanks full and with gas etc loaded, but with out food clothes' etc., our ball weight was sky rocketing. I removed the factory installed grey water tank, and moved the forward tank to behind the wheels, with the grey water tank fitted North/South between the suspension. Now all is good.

There was also a compliance plate issue with the original configuration, which I went back to the dealer to discuss. They contacted the manufacturer, and a new Vin plate was fitted. After that the manufacturer stopped putting figures into the max ball weight section.

However, as stated your max ball weight is that stamped on the tow-bar, or stated in the tow vehicle spec's.

montie · Guru

Marken wrote:
Thank you everyone for so many replies to our problem. Firstly let me clarify some points.
The vehicle specs are irrelevant to our problem. The caravan was chosen as it was (and still is) within the 3t max towing weight. The 300kg tow ball loading will be exceeded if we ignore the problem. I did say that "out it all comes, back to tare weight" so any discussion from here will be about a caravan at tare weight. The mods we made were all superficial (washing machine out, towel rails in,jerry can holders on the rear bar, carpet squares in the floor) and all have been reversed and no structural alterations at all. At tare the weight recorded for the ball weight (correct towing height, no jockey wheel and measured under the tow point) was 60kg OVER that stated on the vin plate. The wide variance in the weighbridge accuracy, +- 20kg, could mean that the prob is not as bad or a lot worse but still a problem!!
We are wondering if anyone else has had such an issue and how it was dealt with by the dealer. BTW the specs (ball weight and tare) on the info leaflet given at the caravan show when we ordered it are still below what the vin plate states.
An update with accurate weights will be forthcoming on Tuesday after attendance by Mac from Weigh Station.

To establish or reconcile the ball weight at tare you need to ask the manufacturer what was actually on the van when they measured it. Gas bottles, spare wheel, empty tanks, empty HWS etc.,

As I said it's irrelevant anyway unless you intend to go touring with an empty van. I think you should be concentrating on getting the loaded ball weight correct as it is far more relevant.

The ball weight at tare bears no relationship to that, rather how you load the van.

hufnpuf · Senior Member

montie wrote:
I think you should be concentrating on getting the loaded ball weight correct as it is far more relevant.
The ball weight at tare bears no relationship to that, rather how you load the van.

But if you are starting with the van 60kg more "front-heavy" than stated, it makes it more difficult to offset that, and you shouldn't have to be offsetting it....

montie · Guru

hufnpuf wrote:
montie wrote:
I think you should be concentrating on getting the loaded ball weight correct as it is far more relevant.
The ball weight at tare bears no relationship to that, rather how you load the van.
But if you are starting with the van 60kg more "front-heavy" than stated, it makes it more difficult to offset that, and you shouldn't have to be offsetting it....

The only accurate way to establish ball download is to weigh it at the coupling with a certified ball scales. Dealers and manufacturers have this equipment. Then you need to know exactly what gear was on the van when it was weighed.

It is also worth mentioning the ball weight when the van leaves the factory will change once and maybe twice before the customer takes delivery. When the dealer pre delivers the van he fills water and gas tanks, supplies hoses and leads etc so the ball weight changes again. Then if an extra battery etc., is fitted another ball weight change.

Ball weight is not constant it is variable and only relevant for the loaded van.

Trying to establish a few kgs variance in empty ball weight is chasing ghosts.

Whenarewethere · Guru

I made my own Jerry can holders from aluminium which halved the weight.

Carpet is surprisingly heavy, mattresses are heavier than one realises.

yobarr · Guru

hufnpuf wrote:
montie wrote:
I think you should be concentrating on getting the loaded ball weight correct as it is far more relevant.
The ball weight at tare bears no relationship to that, rather how you load the van.
But if you are starting with the van 60kg more "front-heavy" than stated, it makes it more difficult to offset that, and you shouldn't have to be offsetting it....

Without knowing the model of caravan,we're shooting in the dark,surely? Are the axles towards the rear,is the bed at the front or the rear,or even E/W over the axles? Where are the water tanks? But we do certainly need to know the ATM,the GTM and the axle capacities before we can help. Towball weight at tare means absolutely nothing,and unfortunately for the OP,there is no way that a Prado can safely tow a 3000kg ATM van, assuming 10% (300kg) towball weight.This,no doubt,is not what he wants to hear,but is indesputable.As always,I am happy to help with weights if info is supplied.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 8th of November 2020 12:52:37 PM

hufnpuf · Senior Member

montie wrote:
Trying to establish a few kgs variance in empty ball weight is chasing ghosts.

It's not a few, he's saying 60kg. You may think that it's irrelevant, but a representation on a VIN plate as to the tare ball weight needs to accord with the tare ball weight. It may be that the OP isn't taking into account something (eg a full water tank). His "weight guy" should clarify things for him.

yobarr · Guru

hufnpuf wrote:
montie wrote:
Trying to establish a few kgs variance in empty ball weight is chasing ghosts.
It's not a few, he's saying 60kg. You may think that it's irrelevant, but a representation on a VIN plate as to the tare ball weight needs to accord with the tare ball weight. It may be that the OP isn't taking into account something (eg a full water tank). His "weight guy" should clarify things for him.

And the chances of proving that the ball weight on the compliance plate is different from the actual ball weight as the van left the factory are zero.Cheers

hufnpuf · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:
hufnpuf wrote:
montie wrote:
Trying to establish a few kgs variance in empty ball weight is chasing ghosts.
It's not a few, he's saying 60kg. You may think that it's irrelevant, but a representation on a VIN plate as to the tare ball weight needs to accord with the tare ball weight. It may be that the OP isn't taking into account something (eg a full water tank). His "weight guy" should clarify things for him.
And the chances of proving that the ball weight on the compliance plate is different from the actual ball weight as the van left the factory are zero.Cheers

That's extremely unlikely. No manufacturer would open themselves up to the consequences of making a representation that is always false....

yobarr · Guru

hufnpuf wrote:
yobarr wrote:
hufnpuf wrote:
montie wrote:
Trying to establish a few kgs variance in empty ball weight is chasing ghosts.
It's not a few, he's saying 60kg. You may think that it's irrelevant, but a representation on a VIN plate as to the tare ball weight needs to accord with the tare ball weight. It may be that the OP isn't taking into account something (eg a full water tank). His "weight guy" should clarify things for him.
And the chances of proving that the ball weight on the compliance plate is different from the actual ball weight as the van left the factory are zero.Cheers
That's extremely unlikely. No manufacturer would open themselves up to the consequences of making a representation that is always false....

You seem to not understand that there is NO way of proving that the ball weight on the plate is different from the actual ball weight if the van has departed the factory.And,once again,I will say that ball weight listed on the compliance plate means nothing.What matters is the ball weight when the van is packed and ready to set sail.Careful loading can help to achieve required ball weight,but ball weight is the least of the OP's problems,as there is no way that a Prado can safely tow a 3000kg ATM van with 10% towball weight.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 8th of November 2020 07:00:45 PM

dabbler · Guru

I agree with Yobarr and I think adding a generator and tools to the drawbar area was always going to create a issue. It's irrelevant what TBM is stamped on the VIN plate. Laden weights are the legal measures used.

hufnpuf · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:
You seem not to understand that there is NO way of proving that the ball weight on the plate is different from the actual ball weight if the van has departed the factory.

Of course there is. There really isn't much point to this, let's just see how it turns out for the OP.

yobarr · Guru

hufnpuf wrote:
yobarr wrote:
You seem not to understand that there is NO way of proving that the ball weight on the plate is different from the actual ball weight if the van has departed the factory.
Of course there is. There really isn't much point to this, let's just see how it turns out for the OP.

How? As my good friend Pauline would say "Please explain." To save you the trouble,it's impossible.Cheers