Incorrect VIN plate

dabbler · Guru

RE: Incorrect VIN plate

montie · Guru

dabbler wrote:
Possible or not, there simply isn't any point in determining if a non-binding number stamped on a bit of metal was once a correct number. Total waste of time and money for no real world gain.

Absolutely correct.

yobarr · Guru

dabbler wrote:
Possible or not, there simply isn't any point in determining if a non-binding number stamped on a bit of metal was once a correct number. Total waste of time and money for no real world gain.

Absolutely correct...but trying to help others understand that seems to be an exercise in futility? Cheers

hufnpuf · Senior Member

dabbler wrote:
Possible or not, there simply isn't any point in determining if a non-binding number stamped on a bit of metal was once a correct number. Total waste of time and money for no real world gain.

A full refund of the purchase price is a real world gain. Of course it's a "binding number". You can't just make stuff up. LOL

montie · Guru

hufnpuf wrote:
dabbler wrote:
Possible or not, there simply isn't any point in determining if a non-binding number stamped on a bit of metal was once a correct number. Total waste of time and money for no real world gain.
A full refund of the purchase price is a real world gain. Of course it's a "binding number". You can't just make stuff up. LOL

It is simply a measured weight at a given time that progressively changes....it is not a legal rating.

Good luck with the full refund based on that. blankstare

Warren-Pat_01 · Guru

Hi Marken,
I assume you did your homework well when you ordered the van. However reading the posts above, it seems you have high expectations of your car, caravan & what you want to carry.
When I bought my current van (second hand), the dealer said "Yes you can tow it ok, 3500kgs - it's well under" but he had no idea as to how close the car was to the GVM! Nor was he aware of the car's sliding scale of ball weights allowed. Yes, I had to make some changes!

I know it's easy to add "various nice things to carry" but is there too much weight involved? Jerry can holders on the rear - your van might be different, but Jayco normally says the only weight that should be on the rear bumper is the spare tyre. Adding fuel to the rear has in the past, not been seen as safe especially if you are hit from the back.
I'd like some more goodies too but cannot afford the extra weight or justifying carrying something that I might use only once in a while travelling all over the country.

Personally I think that a van that has been ordered should have all of the goodies added before the van leaves the yard & the van's VIN plate displaying that weight. Then all you have to contend with is the amount of water you need to carry, gas, tools, food & clothing.

As I said to another poster recently, I want the "impossible" - a lighter, yet still strong van that has an increased load capability! I don't think that's going to happen for a while!

hufnpuf · Senior Member

montie wrote:
a measured weight

represented to be X. If it's not X, then you have problems. A representation is binding, you can't say, 'oh yes, we represented the tare ball weight to be X when it's really Y but that's ok because it's not a "legal rating" so we can say anything and it doesn't need to be true'. You also can't say "the number we represented "progressively changed" because the van was moved 5 feet". That's absolute nonsense.

Whenarewethere · Guru

Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
As I said to another poster recently, I want the "impossible" - a lighter, yet still strong van that has an increased load capability! I don't think that's going to happen for a while!

Hewn from a solid block of unobtainium!

yobarr · Guru

hufnpuf wrote:
montie wrote:
a measured weight
represented to be X. If it's not X, then you have problems. A representation is binding, you can't say, 'oh yes, we represented the tare ball weight to be X when it's really Y but that's ok because it's not a "legal rating" so we can say anything and it doesn't need to be true'. You also can't say "the number we represented "progressively changed" because the van was moved 5 feet". That's absolute nonsense.

There is at least one contributor here who is writing nonsense,and it certainly is not Montie,who has over 30 years experience in this field,and regularly addresses caravan clubs etc,imparting his wide range of knowledge.Perhaps it is opportune for some to listen and learn,rather than shooting from the hip and hoping for the best? A bit of research by the OP before he dived in at the deep end,and purchased a van that was too heavy to be towed by his car,might have been a better option than crying "foul" when he realised his mistake? In our increasingly litigious society,maybe it would be a good idea for some to simply put on their "Big Boy Pants?" and accept responsibility for their own actions? I wish the OP only the best with his search for answers,but ultimately there is only one person responsible for his problems,surely? Cheers

dabbler · Guru

Those people insisting a TBM stamped on a VIN has any legal meaning, please provide a link to the legislation you are relying upon to make this statement. The ONLY number that has a legal meaning, is the one measured in the day and it only becomes an issue when connected to a vehicle that has a lower wt rating than the number measured. We all know TBM varies with loading. Stop and think.

yobarr · Guru

dabbler wrote:
Those people insisting a TBM stamped on a VIN has any legal meaning, please provide a link to the legislation you are relying upon to make this statement. The ONLY number that has a legal meaning, is the one measured in the day and it only becomes an issue when connected to a vehicle that has a lower wt rating than the number measured. We all know TBM varies with loading. Stop and think.

Hi Doug...absolutely true,but I suspect that some still will not understand? C'est la vie. Cheers

markf · Senior Member

For some reason this thread piqued my interest - I normally only have a very quick scan of threads to do with weights. From now on I reckon I'll take more interest.

The plate on our camper says ATM is 2000kg, MAX axle load is 2000kg and Tare is 1470. No mention of ball weight. The Tare is specified by the manufacturer as having all of the canvas and poles in the trailer, no water, no fuel cans and two empty 4.5kg gas bottles. Last time we hit a weighbridge with a fully loaded camper it was under the max by about 100kg. So far so good.

The car (Discovery 2 Auto (this is important)) has on the tow bar max towing weight 3500kg and tow ball downforce is max 250kg. Again all good. BUT.

For trailers over 750kg there must be brakes and the MAX SPEED is 100kph. Again, BUT.

If the D2 is an AUTO the max of 3500kg only applies IN LOW RANGE otherwise the max is 2500kg. In a manual the max towing weight is 3500kg at 100kph. I'm also limited to 1000kg if towing off road. Is the Old Strzelecki Track classed as a road or would LR say it's off Road ?

Only some of this info is in the Owners Handbook, the rest is in the technical specs from Land Rover but you can bet compliance is derived from the tech. specs. and not the handbook.

While being overweight is not a concern for us - we travel quite light - it has highlighted how easy it would be to be overweight while being quite sure that you're within all the limits.

For me the takeout is to hit a weighbridge when I'm fully loaded on a regular basis to ensure that "junk creep" doesn't put me over the limit - I'm usually about 70 or 80kg under GCM which is a bit close for comfort.

yobarr · Guru

markf wrote:
For some reason this thread piqued my interest - I normally only have a very quick scan of threads to do with weights. From now on I reckon I'll take more interest.
The plate on our camper says ATM is 2000kg, MAX axle load is 2000kg and Tare is 1470. No mention of ball weight. The Tare is specified by the manufacturer as having all of the canvas and poles in the trailer, no water, no fuel cans and two empty 4.5kg gas bottles. Last time we hit a weighbridge with a fully loaded camper it was under the max by about 100kg. So far so good.
The car (Discovery 2 Auto (this is important)) has on the tow bar max towing weight 3500kg and tow ball downforce is max 250kg. Again all good. BUT.
For trailers over 750kg there must be brakes and the MAX SPEED is 100kph. Again, BUT.
If the D2 is an AUTO the max of 3500kg only applies IN LOW RANGE otherwise the max is 2500kg. In a manual the max towing weight is 3500kg at 100kph. I'm also limited to 1000kg if towing off road. Is the Old Strzelecki Track classed as a road or would LR say it's off Road ?
Only some of this info is in the Owners Handbook, the rest is in the technical specs from Land Rover but you can bet compliance is derived from the tech. specs. and not the handbook.
While being overweight is not a concern for us - we travel quite light - it has highlighted how easy it would be to be overweight while being quite sure that you're within all the limits.
For me the takeout is to hit a weighbridge when I'm fully loaded on a regular basis to ensure that "junk creep" doesn't put me over the limit - I'm usually about 70 or 80kg under GCM which is a bit close for comfort.b

Hi Mark.....great to see you taking an active interest in your weights!Unfortunately,I cannot offer any assistance with your Landrover weights,but to throw a spanner into the works,I seem to recall that Landrovers are limited to towing 750kg if offroad? There are a couple of Landrover owners on here who seem to know their stuff,and they possibly will be able to help you.Now to the camper.It should be easy to increase your camper's ATM, maybe up to 2200kg,because your axle already is rated at 2000kg and you would have 200kg on your towball.Just an idea,but easily and cheaply done,and you would have an extra 200kg carrying capacity.....on paper,you could then carry 730kg.Cheers.

P.S Watch your car's rear axle weight....I don't have access to my ratings records at the moment,but when I get home I will have a look. Presently,I am parked up in the middle of a huge forest,testing the capabilities of my Cel-fi Go phone signal booster,and seems to be doing well.No bars at all when I stopped here,but now have 3 bars after I turned the unit on.

-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 9th of November 2020 01:02:15 PM

markf · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:
markf wrote:
For some reason this thread piqued my interest - I normally only have a very quick scan of threads to do with weights. From now on I reckon I'll take more interest.
The plate on our camper says ATM is 2000kg, MAX axle load is 2000kg and Tare is 1470. No mention of ball weight. The Tare is specified by the manufacturer as having all of the canvas and poles in the trailer, no water, no fuel cans and two empty 4.5kg gas bottles. Last time we hit a weighbridge with a fully loaded camper it was under the max by about 100kg. So far so good.
The car (Discovery 2 Auto (this is important)) has on the tow bar max towing weight 3500kg and tow ball downforce is max 250kg. Again all good. BUT.
For trailers over 750kg there must be brakes and the MAX SPEED is 100kph. Again, BUT.
If the D2 is an AUTO the max of 3500kg only applies IN LOW RANGE otherwise the max is 2500kg. In a manual the max towing weight is 3500kg at 100kph. I'm also limited to 1000kg if towing off road. Is the Old Strzelecki Track classed as a road or would LR say it's off Road ?
Only some of this info is in the Owners Handbook, the rest is in the technical specs from Land Rover but you can bet compliance is derived from the tech. specs. and not the handbook.
While being overweight is not a concern for us - we travel quite light - it has highlighted how easy it would be to be overweight while being quite sure that you're within all the limits.
For me the takeout is to hit a weighbridge when I'm fully loaded on a regular basis to ensure that "junk creep" doesn't put me over the limit - I'm usually about 70 or 80kg under GCM which is a bit close for comfort.b
Hi Mark.....great to see you taking an active interest in your weights!Unfortunately,I cannot offer any assistance with your Landrover weights,but to throw a spanner into the works,I seem to recall that Landrovers are limited to towing 750kg if offroad? There are a couple of Landrover owners on here who seem to know their stuff,and they possibly will be able to help you.Now to the camper.It should be easy to increase your camper's ATM, maybe up to 2200kg,because your axle already is rated at 2000kg and you would have 200kg on your towball.Just an idea,but easily and cheaply done,and you would have an extra 200kg carrying capacity.....on paper,you could then carry 730kg.Cheers.
P.S Watch your car's rear axle weight....I don't have access to my ratings records at the moment,but when I get home I will have a look. Presently,I am parked up in the middle of a huge forest,testing the capabilities of my Cel-fi Go phone signal booster,and seems to be doing well.No bars at all when I stopped here,but now have 3 bars after I turned the unit on.

-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 9th of November 2020 01:02:15 PM

Hi Yobaar

Ta for all that - we're all good... Our grandson, however, seems to think that the bump stops are there to indicate when you should stop throwing "stuff" in the back of the wagon...

After being bitten about 25 years ago you can rest assured that we keep a careful eye on weights...

Whenever we go away we hit the weighbridge at Officer and spend a therapeutic half hour or so getting coffee and weighbridge tickets. We haven't been over yet so we'll carry on and beware the dreaded "junk creep"...

We're off to spend a few days somewhere along the Murray fishing and relaxing. The grand departure is tomorrow morning and while we're away I'll post some stuff on the web site in my sig...

yobarr · Guru

markf wrote:
yobarr wrote:
markf wrote:
For some reason this thread piqued my interest - I normally only have a very quick scan of threads to do with weights. From now on I reckon I'll take more interest.
The plate on our camper says ATM is 2000kg, MAX axle load is 2000kg and Tare is 1470. No mention of ball weight. The Tare is specified by the manufacturer as having all of the canvas and poles in the trailer, no water, no fuel cans and two empty 4.5kg gas bottles. Last time we hit a weighbridge with a fully loaded camper it was under the max by about 100kg. So far so good.
The car (Discovery 2 Auto (this is important)) has on the tow bar max towing weight 3500kg and tow ball downforce is max 250kg. Again all good. BUT.
For trailers over 750kg there must be brakes and the MAX SPEED is 100kph. Again, BUT.
If the D2 is an AUTO the max of 3500kg only applies IN LOW RANGE otherwise the max is 2500kg. In a manual the max towing weight is 3500kg at 100kph. I'm also limited to 1000kg if towing off road. Is the Old Strzelecki Track classed as a road or would LR say it's off Road ?
Only some of this info is in the Owners Handbook, the rest is in the technical specs from Land Rover but you can bet compliance is derived from the tech. specs. and not the handbook.
While being overweight is not a concern for us - we travel quite light - it has highlighted how easy it would be to be overweight while being quite sure that you're within all the limits.
For me the takeout is to hit a weighbridge when I'm fully loaded on a regular basis to ensure that "junk creep" doesn't put me over the limit - I'm usually about 70 or 80kg under GCM which is a bit close for comfort.b
Hi Mark.....great to see you taking an active interest in your weights!Unfortunately,I cannot offer any assistance with your Landrover weights,but to throw a spanner into the works,I seem to recall that Landrovers are limited to towing 750kg if offroad? There are a couple of Landrover owners on here who seem to know their stuff,and they possibly will be able to help you.Now to the camper.It should be easy to increase your camper's ATM, maybe up to 2200kg,because your axle already is rated at 2000kg and you would have 200kg on your towball.Just an idea,but easily and cheaply done,and you would have an extra 200kg carrying capacity.....on paper,you could then carry 730kg.Cheers.
P.S Watch your car's rear axle weight....I don't have access to my ratings records at the moment,but when I get home I will have a look. Presently,I am parked up in the middle of a huge forest,testing the capabilities of my Cel-fi Go phone signal booster,and seems to be doing well.No bars at all when I stopped here,but now have 3 bars after I turned the unit on.

-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 9th of November 2020 01:02:15 PM
Hi Yobaar
Ta for all that - we're all good... Our grandson, however, seems to think that the bump stops are there to indicate when you should stop throwing "stuff" in the back of the wagon...
After being bitten about 25 years ago you can rest assured that we keep a careful eye on weights...
Whenever we go away we hit the weighbridge at Officer and spend a therapeutic half hour or so getting coffee and weighbridge tickets. We haven't been over yet so we'll carry on and beware the dreaded "junk creep"...
We're off to spend a few days somewhere along the Murray fishing and relaxing. The grand departure is tomorrow morning and while we're away I'll post some stuff on the web site in my sig...

Nice one Mark...enjoy your travels,and I look forward to further posts.Cheers

Warren-Pat_01 · Guru

Thanks Whenarewethere,
I'll keep an eye out for that material - perhaps a number of others could be interested when I find it!!

oldbloke · Guru

IMO all weights on the plate should be accurate. Otherwise what would be the point?. Did you get a weigh bridge ticket when you picked up the van? I got one.

When removing everything to get it back to tare, don't forget the gas in the bottles. They haven't been mentioned. About 2×9 = 17kg. Would add about 15kg to the TBW. And drain the HWS. Another 20 or so.

montie · Guru

I don't think there is anything to indicate that the measured ball weight on the plate was not accurate when it was weighed. But then it went to the dealer who did a predelivery and then to the eventual buyer who made modifications so measured ball weight will definitely have changed as a result.

When manufacturers measure ball weight many do it with different equipment on the empty van. Some leave the gas bottles on others remove them and so on.

-- Edited by montie on Saturday 14th of November 2020 11:20:32 AM