Towing weight confusion.

iana · Guru

Towing weight confusion.

Whenarewethere · Guru

My car is well under these limits, 2000kg on-road, 750kg (braked) off-road. Towball weight 350kg Australia 150kg rest of the world. GVM can be increased by 100kg upto 100kph when towing only. But you have to not exceed the rear axle limit. The car only has a 500kg payload.

Just as well I don't tow, it makes my head explode!

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

I don't know much about towing regulations in Europe, but Europe is not one country and the regulations do vary from country to country.
What is fairly consistent is that the limit for "car" licenses is 3.5T GVM whereas in Australia it is 4.5T GVM.
Also, I doubt that 3.5T tow limit is of much general interest because the Europeans don't tow the "blocks of flats" that we see in Australia. That is not to say they don't tow big vans and while they are not so common, they don't weigh anything like they do in this country.

As an example, this van belongs to friends of ours. It is about 10m. He tows it with a Porsche Cayenne. The ATM is about 2.5T.
German van.jpg

Cheers,

Peter

travelyounger · Guru

iana wrote:
Went to Isuzu today to get a quote for a new Ute. The quote had to consist of a CVM upgrade, they refused, saying that the up-grade is not legal, as while the new suspension is legal, the vehicle is tested and rated for the vehicles stated CVM.
I said the magic figure of towing 3500kg is to do with European Drivers license, however denied by the sales manager. But looking on the net, I see that in Europe there are many license categories, and the one for Joe Blow is a BE, this has a towing limit of "ÿes" you guessed it 3500kg.
To tow more then you have to go to a higher category license which limits one to 7,000kg I think. So I was right, to sell a Ute in Europe, it has to have a towing limit of 3500kg, i.e. thats where the magic figure comes from. It would be a strange thing if all the Utes are designed to have a structural limit of 3500. For instance one may be designed to a limit of 4000kg, another 3800kg etc. etc., but the magic figure comes from the European licensing system.
So to sell to the major market in Europe, a Ute can only have a towing limit can only be a max of 3500kg. Do I read this correctly?

Hi Iana

I have had many Isuzu dealers and the service departments tell me that engine oil changes every 20000 km not 10000 km auto gearbox oil changes are not necessary oil coolers are not necessary catch cans are not necessary .

As far as them knowing anything about gvm and gcm you are only hearing from a salesman would you really believe them and you do know that every state has different laws regarding first stage and second stage of manufacture for upgrades on certain vehicles by lovells pedders Ironman and others

cheers

iana · Guru

John that maybe so, b-u-t I have been to Ford and they know what I want, that was yesterday morning, I have communicated with Mazda, and they know what I want, and yet I have had no replies, that is for quotes, me thinks there is a little problem.

travelyounger · Guru

iana wrote:
John that maybe so, b-u-t I have been to Ford and they know what I want, that was yesterday morning, I have communicated with Mazda, and they know what I want, and yet I have had no replies, that is for quotes, me thinks there is a little problem.

Thats a red flag sometimes its too much trouble for a sale keep trying there has to be someone out there who knows what they are doing, good luck

montie · Guru

iana wrote:
Went to Isuzu today to get a quote for a new Ute. The quote had to consist of a CVM upgrade, they refused, saying that the up-grade is not legal, as while the new suspension is legal, the vehicle is tested and rated for the vehicles stated CVM.
I said the magic figure of towing 3500kg is to do with European Drivers license, however denied by the sales manager. But looking on the net, I see that in Europe there are many license categories, and the one for Joe Blow is a BE, this has a towing limit of "ÿes" you guessed it 3500kg.
To tow more then you have to go to a higher category license which limits one to 7,000kg I think. So I was right, to sell a Ute in Europe, it has to have a towing limit of 3500kg, i.e. thats where the magic figure comes from. It would be a strange thing if all the Utes are designed to have a structural limit of 3500. For instance one may be designed to a limit of 4000kg, another 3800kg etc. etc., but the magic figure comes from the European licensing system.
So to sell to the major market in Europe, a Ute can only have a towing limit can only be a max of 3500kg. Do I read this correctly?

A GVM upgrade would be useless when towing because of 6000kg GCM rating.

Would give you more payload capacity in the tug but you still can't tow 3.5 tonne with a DMax.

iana · Guru

Gross Combined Vehicle Mass (GCM or CVM), to be upgraded Federally, has to be done to a new vehicle prior to registration. The GVM is not the issue.

montie · Guru

iana wrote:
Gross Combined Vehicle Mass (GCM or CVM), to be upgraded Federally, has to be done to a new vehicle prior to registration. The GVM is not the issue.

I'm confused...what is the issue?

You said you asked for a CVM upgrade, I assume you meant GVM. A GVM upgrade does not automatically give you a corresponding GCM upgrade.

montie · Guru

Isuzu DMax

BTC.....3500kg

GVM.....3100kg

GCM....5950kg

Ball Rating....350kg.

With tug loaded to max 3100kg Inc 350kg ball weight the maximum you can legally tow is 3200kg.

GCM 5950 minus GVM 3100kg = 2850kg + 350kg Ball = 3200kg max ATM.

travelyounger · Guru

montie wrote:
iana wrote:
Gross Combined Vehicle Mass (GCM or CVM), to be upgraded Federally, has to be done to a new vehicle prior to registration. The GVM is not the issue.
I'm confused...what is the issue?
You said you asked for a CVM upgrade, I assume you meant GVM. A GVM upgrade does not automatically give you a corresponding GCM upgrade.

Hi Iana

To make it easy give the state manager of lovells suspension nsw he will be able to answer all your queries about gvm and gcm upgrades

cheers

iana · Guru

Montie Gross Combined Vehicle Mass

montie · Guru

iana wrote:
Montie Gross Combined Vehicle Mass

That is the GCM rating.

What is CVM?

travelyounger · Guru

Thats a typo

outlaw40 · Guru

Dont take this the wrong way iana but i think you have gotten yourself a little confused , along with misinformation and lack of knowledge on the salesman's part .I would highly advise you to contact Lovells before you go any farther as they are in the best position to give you accurate advise . contact the experts and in this case lovells would be number 1 .

iana · Guru

I shall contact Ford, and ask what's going on, all I know is if I had a potential $60,000 deal, I would have the quotes sent pronto.

iana · Guru

This is what I am really pissed off about, the vehicle salesman told me my weights would be different to the std well bodied ute. The caravan sales persons just smiled and said I could tow anything in the yard. Not one of them pointed out the error.

Yes you are right GCM is correct, there is a reference to CVM but GCM is the one used.

yobarr · Guru

montie wrote:
Isuzu DMax

BTC.....3500kg
GVM.....3100kg
GCM....5950kg
Ball Rating....350kg.

With tug loaded to max 3100kg Inc 350kg ball weight the maximum you can legally tow is 3200kg.
GCM 5950 minus GVM 3100kg = 2850kg + 350kg Ball = 3200kg max ATM.

Absolutely right,but I think that Montie is being very diplomatic here,as you will never reach your 3100kg GVM because of a lightweight rear axle of only 1870kg (from memory),combined with the fact that a 350kg towball weight takes at least 140kg OFF the front axle,and transfers it to the rear.This weight can never be returned.Trying to tow a 3500kg van with a vehicle that has a GCM of 6000kg is an exercise in stupidity.Cheers

Possum3 · Guru

Iana, Download technical data at www.caravancouncil.com.au/technical-articles should assist.

Radar · Guru

Iana good morning.

This is my take on getting it right.

You are trying to answer 2 question at once.

1. You wish to purchase a new car, preferably a ute to tow a pig style trailer of x amount of weight.

2. Your caravan needs a new car preferably a ute that will tow your pig style trailer with x amount on the towball.

In all this to keep it legal and comfortable.

My thoughts only, that spending money on Engineering certification to achieve GCM ugrading is a waste of money to pull a pig style caravan. Tha extra weight of the suspension parts in the extra springs, larger shockers counter balances most of the gain and along with the high cost of the exercise.

When I purchased our ute, we had a caravan gvw 2000kgs, 200kgs tbw, all was good, simple exercise.

2 years later we wanted more, it was hard work sourcing a caravan with the extra things we needed in the caravan to match our ute, to my horror after we loaded it ready to go, the towball weight was heavy, a bit of juggling, job was right but up near the max of the caravan gvm. A phone call to the caravan manufacturer, agreement was reached for an extra 100kgs on the caravan gvm.

Happy chappie with our working gcw 5600kg, tbw 270kgs and allowed total of gcm 6020kgs.

iana · Guru

Gee I wish the problem was only tow ball weight, that's an easy fix.
My original statement was that there seems to be a problem with doing a GCM upgrade, as the vehicle has to be supplied unregistered to the 2nd stage installer. The Isuzu supplier refused, and I have had no contact back from Ford or Mazda about this.
The other point was that I said that the towing capacity, did not seem to be a design limitation, but a European Drivers License restriction. So a vehicles actual towing capacity maybe design capable of more, but it is dumbed down To meat the license requirements, otherwise hardly any of the Utes would be sold in Europe.

Bill B · Guru

Just buy a 79 Cruiser so we don't have to listen to endless & repetitive waffle from someone

iana · Guru

Gee I wish the problem was only tow ball weight, that's an easy fix.
My original statement was that there seems to be a problem with doing a GCM upgrade, as the vehicle has to be supplied unregistered to the 2nd stage installer. The Isuzu supplier refused, and I have had no contact back from Ford or Mazda about this.
The other point was that I said that the towing capacity, did not seem to be a design limitation, but a European Drivers License restriction. So a vehicles actual towing capacity maybe design capable of more, but it is dumbed down To meat the license requirements, otherwise hardly any of the Utes would be sold in Europe.

montie · Guru

iana wrote:
Gee I wish the problem was only tow ball weight, that's an easy fix.
My original statement was that there seems to be a problem with doing a GCM upgrade, as the vehicle has to be supplied unregistered to the 2nd stage installer. The Isuzu supplier refused, and I have had no contact back from Ford or Mazda about this.
The other point was that I said that the towing capacity, did not seem to be a design limitation, but a European Drivers License restriction. So a vehicles actual towing capacity maybe design capable of more, but it is dumbed down To meat the license requirements, otherwise hardly any of the Utes would be sold in Europe.

I would be very surprised if Isuzu or other 6tonne GCM rated vehicle would endorse a GCM upgrade. As far as I know Lovell's are the only company who would do it but obviously the manufacturer has to agree.

IMO you need at least a Cruiser or Patrol to safely tow 3.5 tonne.

yobarr · Guru

Bill B wrote:
Just buy a 79 Cruiser so we don't have to listen to endless & repetitive waffle from someone

What a great idea Bill....and he'd have factory GCM of 6800kg.So easy,really.However,I'm confused about your use of the word waffle",as I do not recall ever having seen anyone "speak or write at length in a vague or trivial manner" when the 79 is being discussed.All posts I have read regarding this car have been clear,concise and factual. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 2nd of December 2020 12:21:12 PM

iana · Guru

OK Bill B I'll butt out. See Ya.

yobarr · Guru

iana wrote:
John that maybe so, b-u-t I have been to Ford and they know what I want, that was yesterday morning, I have communicated with Mazda, and they know what I want, and yet I have had no replies, that is for quotes, me thinks there is a little problem.

Hi Ian...Read somewhere that there is about to be a 3 month supply shortage of both DMax and BT50s,due to the short supply if some part that is sourced from Europe.Don't have details yet,but if you wish to purchase one if these cars,it may be something to consider? Cheers

Bill B · Guru

iana wrote:

OK Bill B I'll butt out. See Ya.

Can't you take a joke ?

travelyounger · Guru

Could be that its a new model and the suspension mobs have not got the components or go ahead yet Cheers

Rob Driver · Guru

Hi iana,

As others have mentioned go to the Lovells manager in your state for the facts rather than listen to the gammon from our resident expert on here.

You may find that they have done what you require already so will have first hand knowledge and will certainly tell you if you cant do it.

Source: Macquarie Dictionary

Gammon; = Deceitful Nonsense.

Regards

Rob