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Post Info TOPIC: Towing Limitations Discussed


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This mornings newspaper contains a story about the new Mazda BT50 (AKA Isuzu DMax) and it captured my attention because it seems that,at last,someone has had the intestinal fortitude to reveal the towing inadequacies of the current crop of 5950-6000kg GCM utes.Such cars are presented as "tows 3500kg",or some such,but the truth is that they cannot safely get within cooee of this figure,if the towed vehicle is a pig trailer.(Van).Although it appears that he is a little out in his calculations,this may well have been intentionally done in an effort to assist those with no understanding of weights? He states that "the trailer (van) can weigh no more than 2850kg in order to keep within the gross combination mass (GCM) of 5950kg". The 2850kg referred to is actually the GTM,or weight on the van's axle group.To this we must add the towball weight of around 10% (300kg +/-) to find the van's total weight (ATM?) of around 3150kg.This figure is the maximum weight that can safely be towed by these 6000kg (+/-) utes as a pig trailer.Tow 3500. Tell 'em they're dreaming.And a HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.  Cheers

 

 

731A4172-53F5-4BC7-8437-1604FA1965CD.jpeg

D4C2F746-460A-4154-83AD-D548D08DF6C6.png

 

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 1st of January 2021 03:31:12 PM

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yobarr wrote:

This mornings newspaper contains a story about the new Mazda BT50 (AKA Isuzu DMax) and it captured my attention because it seems that,at last,someone has had the intestinal fortitude to reveal the towing inadquacies of the current crop of 5950-6000kg GCM  utes.Such cars are presented as "tows 3500kg",or some such,but the truth is that they cannot safely get within cooee of this figure,if the towed vehicle is a pig trailer.(Van).Although it appears that he is a little out in his calculations,this may well have been intentionally done in an effort to assist those with no understanding of weights? He states that "the trailer (van) can weigh no more than 2850kg in order to keep within the gross combination mass (GCM) of 5950kg". The 2850kg referred to is actually the GTM,or weight on the van's axle group.To this we must add the towball weight of around 10% (300kg +/-) to find the van's total weight (ATM?) of around 3150kg.This figure is the maximum weight that can safely be towed by these 6000kg (+/-) utes as a pig trailer.Tow 3500. Tell 'em they're dreaming.And a HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.  Cheers

 

 

731A4172-53F5-4BC7-8437-1604FA1965CD.jpeg

D4C2F746-460A-4154-83AD-D548D08DF6C6.png

 





-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 1st of January 2021 12:06:46 PM


 O oh not weights again Im exhausted and nice setup Yobarr and happy new year to you and to all the contributors and lookers on the grey nomads forum it can be very entertaining at times 

cheers John 



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Hi Chris,
It might be your ideal rig, but to me it looks heavy, cumbersome and 'full' for want of a better word. Down at the back, front guards up..........right on GCM are we?

Bull bar, roof rack, tradesman locker and toolbox on front of van, you need a WDH !!!!!!

Happy New Year Bob


smilesmilesmile



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Bobdown wrote:

Hi Chris,
It might be your ideal rig, but to me it looks heavy, cumbersome and 'full' for want of a better word. Down at the back, front guards up..........right on GCM are we?
Bull bar, roof rack, tradesman locker and toolbox on front of van, you need a WDH !!!!!!
Happy New Year Bob

smilesmilesmile


 Nice analysis of the setup, Bob,but photo was included only for illustration purposes.It is not my car. Cheers



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yobarr wrote:

Bob,but photo was included only for illustration purposes.It is not my car. Cheers



Why keep posting a photo of someone else's rig on a regular basis no

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Bill B


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I have a cousin that has a 26ft van. He towed it for years with a dual cab older LC. Recently he's updated to an Isuzu. I don't know his weights, but he said once loaded it's bang on max. His van has full ensuite, kitchen, large fridge, 2 single beds and very small dining table. Apart from the large fridge (ours is 30L) and the dining table, we have everything they have in our 16ft. In fact ours is less claustrophobic as his is 3 rooms. And we do it with 998kg atm My post is to highlight that going the max isn't always necessary (by the way members you can have the freedom of doing as you please). Surely 2000kg maybe 2300 atm would provide you with comfort and no need to get near 3500kg? Why go the max? And some van owners only check atm but don't bother with axle capacity and other factors. Tony

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Eaglemax i dont believe that to many of the people with dual cab utes are actually trying to tow 3.5t . I would think that the majority are around the 2.5 to 2.8t mark , there are always exceptions but i believe the majority dont have the problems some on here continual to ramble on about .

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Yobarr: have you considered stamp collecting as a hobby? Mate, I like you (as best I can tell) and think you're an intelligent and sensible person but I am sick to death of the interminable weights thing as, I suspect, are many others. It's a new year, time for a new theme, please....

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yep, weights outa be banned from the forum. to many that need to have the last say, child like
cheers
blaze

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Reading is not compulsory. If you don't like it, just move on.
If you blokes have got anything sensible to contribute, please do so, otherwise go back to the schoolyard with the other children.
Cheers,
Peter

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Whilst all you blokes know your weights backwards, at least I hope you do, there is often a new chum asking about that subject on here. Are you going to deny them the right to that information just because you have heard it all before or you want to shoot the messenger? If you aren't interested don't read the post. Simples.

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What Yobarr has stated in his post is absolutely correct and good information for those who need it.
If you are already well informed on the subject and have nothing useful to contribute then it's best to move on.
Play the ball not the man.

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Happy New Year to you all!

"Child-like, schoolyards, you blokes, this photo is not my car, my little set up is all anyone needs, ramble on", bla bla, welcome to our friendly forum.

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Greg 1 wrote:

Whilst all you blokes know your weights backwards, at least I hope you do, there is often a new chum asking about that subject on here. Are you going to deny them the right to that information just because you have heard it all before or you want to shoot the messenger? If you aren't interested don't read the post. Simples.


 Correct.

Weights takes a bit to understand.  What we really need here is a SIMPLE/lay explanation of weights. Or some simple examples. Not rambling words and subjective opinions.



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oldbloke wrote:
Greg 1 wrote:

Whilst all you blokes know your weights backwards, at least I hope you do, there is often a new chum asking about that subject on here. Are you going to deny them the right to that information just because you have heard it all before or you want to shoot the messenger? If you aren't interested don't read the post. Simples.


 Correct.

Weights takes a bit to understand.  What we really need here is a SIMPLE/lay explanation of weights. Or some simple examples. Not rambling words and subjective opinions.


    X 2

    I agree with the need for accurate info to be posted, as with the newspaper cutting portraying  important info about 3.5 ton towing dual cab utes, a clear example of the facts, that car dealers should be upfront about.

    But why put up a photo of someone else's rig that doesn't resemble the newspaper story, not a BT50 or Dmax.

    Cheers Bob



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oldbloke wrote:
Weights takes a bit to understand.  What we really need here is a SIMPLE/lay explanation of weights. Or some simple examples. Not rambling words and subjective opinions.

Agree. So let's have a FAQ rather than this interminable mishmash of threads which makes it very difficult to extract good information in a search and even if one finds info it's often contradicted by other posters and the novice has no idea who is correct.

A FAQ removes all that confusion and is a living document which reflects best knowledge and practice and may be challenged and changed but it is the "bible" and a clear resource for all.

I suggest Yobarr is a good candidate to write a draft version which is published and refined into a release document?

Edit: I will gladly help with proof reading and a basic technical check.



-- Edited by Mike Harding on Saturday 2nd of January 2021 10:49:56 AM

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Mike Harding wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Weights takes a bit to understand.  What we really need here is a SIMPLE/lay explanation of weights. Or some simple examples. Not rambling words and subjective opinions.

Agree. So let's have a FAQ rather than this interminable mishmash of threads which makes it very difficult to extract good information in a search and even if one finds info it's often contradicted by other posters and the novice has no idea who is correct.A FAQ removes all that confusion and is a living document which reflects best knowledge and practice and may be challenged and changed but it is the "bible" and a clear resource for all.I suggest Yobarr is a good candidate to write a draft version which is published and refined into a release document?Edit: I will gladly help with proof reading and a basic technical check.

-- Edited by Mike Harding on Saturday 2nd of January 2021 10:49:56 AM


Thankyou Mike,for your suggestion that a FAQ list be made available to those who do not understand weights.I also would like to thank Greg1,Montie, Peter'n'Margaret,Neil,and Bob for their kind notes of support,'wrong' picture or not! The main problem with weights,I believe,is that many owners do not understand the limitations of their car's rear axle,and how towball weight affects that axle,and indeed,the car's front axle.A WDH is,in my opinion,most definitely not the 'cure all' that many portray it to be,particularly with heavy vans,although it may help some owners to 'balance' their vehicles.Any post that I make concerning weights is made in an effort to help others understand the perils of overloading,and to help them to avoid being negatively influenced by the words of mealy mouthed car salesmen,van salesmen,or people who market WDHs,as these people are unlikely to let the truth get in the way of making their commission based sale.Caveat emptor.Unfortunately,my contributions regularly are challenged by a member who knows little,understands less,and appears to not be interested in learning.C'est la vie! Back to Mike's FAQ suggestion.....I am happy to attempt to answer any question about weights,at any time,on any car,but I have no idea about how to do 'draft versions'.If Mike would like to get this started,and let me know what he needs from me,I am good to go,anytime.My hand comes out of its splint in 10 days time,so I will again be on my way.Because I will be bush camping,I should have plenty of time to devote to this.Perhaps this will help to avoid the confusion and misunderstandings that currently are exhibited by some members,new or old? Happy New Year to all.Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 01:32:03 AM

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And no complicated exel spread sheets.

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Maybe Doug could knock one up on WDH and I could do something similar on the necessity of generators.



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yobarr wrote:

 I have no idea about how to do 'draft versions'.If Mike would like to get this started,and let me know what he needs from me


I need you to write it! :)

A draft version is simply a version of the document before it is formally released after a satisfactory peer review. It is usual to allot version numbers below 1 to a draft document and make version 1.0 the first release so we'll start with draft version "V0.01".

A FAQ is a formal, factual document so your "opinion" on WDHs is not relevant - a WDH section is certainly appropriate but its content must be verified by reputable sources as must all other statements and assertions in the document.

Normally a single individual controls the FAQ and I suggest this is you Yobarr - it's not hard, I'll help set it up.

Document layout should be decided before commencement; I suggest Microsoft Word  1997-2003 .doc which can host photographs and drawings and is capable of being read by much software including Libre Office which is open source and, thus, free.

A FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) is like a short book, a title page, table of contents, various chapters and an index - most of the contents and indexing may be done automatically with Microsoft Office and/or Libre Office. So we should start by constructing a table of contents, which subjects do we wish to cover?

Care to have a stab at that Yobarr?



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Mike Harding wrote:
yobarr wrote:

 I have no idea about how to do 'draft versions'.If Mike would like to get this started,and let me know what he needs from me


I need you to write it! :)

A draft version is simply a version of the document before it is formally released after a satisfactory peer review. It is usual to allot version numbers below 1 to a draft document and make version 1.0 the first release so we'll start with draft version "V0.01".

A FAQ is a formal, factual document so your "opinion" on WDHs is not relevant - a WDH section is certainly appropriate but its content must be verified by reputable sources as must all other statements and assertions in the document.

Normally a single individual controls the FAQ and I suggest this is you Yobarr - it's not hard, I'll help set it up.

Document layout should be decided before commencement; I suggest Microsoft Word  1997-2003 .doc which can host photographs and drawings and is capable of being read by much software including Libre Office which is open source and, thus, free.

A FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) is like a short book, a title page, table of contents, various chapters and an index - most of the contents and indexing may be done automatically with Microsoft Office and/or Libre Office. So we should start by constructing a table of contents, which subjects do we wish to cover?

Care to have a stab at that Yobarr?


 Why not make a list of all the tugs,......... dual cabs, cruisers, patrols, rams, mitsi's, and list their max towing weight, tbw and weight they can carry in the tub or back of the wagon, just the max ATM loaded.

I don't think we need axle weights, gcm, gvm or everything else unless requested by the individual. It would be interesting just to know the Max for each vehicle.

Cheers Bob



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Weight Jargon.JPG



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Bobdown wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
yobarr wrote:

 I have no idea about how to do 'draft versions'.If Mike would like to get this started,and let me know what he needs from me


I need you to write it! :)

A draft version is simply a version of the document before it is formally released after a satisfactory peer review. It is usual to allot version numbers below 1 to a draft document and make version 1.0 the first release so we'll start with draft version "V0.01".

A FAQ is a formal, factual document so your "opinion" on WDHs is not relevant - a WDH section is certainly appropriate but its content must be verified by reputable sources as must all other statements and assertions in the document.

Normally a single individual controls the FAQ and I suggest this is you Yobarr - it's not hard, I'll help set it up.

Document layout should be decided before commencement; I suggest Microsoft Word  1997-2003 .doc which can host photographs and drawings and is capable of being read by much software including Libre Office which is open source and, thus, free.

A FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) is like a short book, a title page, table of contents, various chapters and an index - most of the contents and indexing may be done automatically with Microsoft Office and/or Libre Office. So we should start by constructing a table of contents, which subjects do we wish to cover?

Care to have a stab at that Yobarr?


 Why not make a list of all the tugs,......... dual cabs, cruisers, patrols, rams, mitsi's, and list their max towing weight, tbw and weight they can carry in the tub or back of the wagon, just the max ATM loaded.

I don't think we need axle weights, gcm, gvm or everything else unless requested by the individual. It would be interesting just to know the Max for each vehicle.

Cheers Bob


 Hi Bob...I agree with your suggestion that a list of cars be drawn up,with claimed towing capacity,actual towing capacity,(and why that claimed towing capacity is not achievable with a PIG trailer) tbw,GVM etc,but axle weights are critical, as this is what people don't understand.Your setup might be fine for GVM,fine for towball weight,fine for GCM and fine for ATM,but usually the rear axle is the limiting factor.This may be fine for the scalies etc,but if you have an accident,and you are found to be overloaded on the car's rear axle,you're gone.Very few cars can carry much in the 'tub' or back of the car if they are running with the universally accepted 10% safe towball weight and a heavy van.One of the most important things,in my view,is that we illustrate how a WDH works,as most seem to believe that it reduces towball weight.It does not.Any weight is removed from the car's rear axle,with about 70% of that weight going on to the car's front axle,and 30% onto the van's axle group.Because towball weight has not changed,but there is more weight on the van's axle group,you may well exceed your GTM and,indeed,your ATM rating......no insurance.               It might be best if Mike simply gives me a list of questions,which I will answer,along with detailed explanations of my reasoning and my calculations with each reply.Because diplomacy has never been my strong point,he then might like to edit my stuff,I could check that any intended meaning has not been inadvertently altered,and it could be documented.I am happy to run with whatever Mike suggests,but I am not flash on computers,and know nothing about such things as Microsoft Words etc.Just spotted Mike's suggestion that any document be subject to a "satisfactory peer review", but  I'm not sure what this means? If it means that the document will be scrutinised by the very people we're trying to teach,we're snookered on the black......but I may well be misunderstanding Mike's intention.Cheers                                                                                                



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oldbloke wrote:
Greg 1 wrote:

 

 

 orid on Saturay 2nd of Januar 2021 02:00:12 PM



-- Edited by orid on Saturday 2nd of January 2021 02:01:42 PM

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old bloke wrote:

Weight Jargon.JPG


Hi Neil..that certainly is a good start,but the problem we have is trying to show how each of these interacts with the others. A while back I tried to help a chap who was severely overloaded in both his car and his van.Here is the story again.Cheers

 

2475F0B0-F7F3-41C1-AD46-98C3B55E548D.png



-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 2nd of January 2021 01:59:12 PM

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Bobdown wrote:
oldbloke wrote:

 


 

 

oldbloke wrote:
Greg 1 wrote:

Whilst all you blokes know your weights backwards, at least I hope you do, there is often a new chum asking about that subject on here. Are you going to deny them the right to that information just because you have heard it all before or you want to shoot the messenger? If you aren't interested don't read the post. Simples.


 Correct.

Weights takes a bit to understand.  What we really need here is a SIMPLE/lay explanation of weights. Or some simple examples. Not rambling words and subjective opinions.


 just been reading this thread  ,always a good important subject in my opinion , good idea ,simple /lay explanation of weights .

Not so easy ,

BUT

people still tend to put their head in the sand as soon as they start to get suspicious that they are over the legal limit.  YOU CANT FACE THE TRUTH !!!!!!

https://youtu.be/0M1WTikKoAQ

   Kudos to yobarr for his perserverence on these matters ,that is not appreciated by many. And yes he has helped me with my setup.

Regards Orid



-- Edited by orid on Saturday 2nd of January 2021 02:00:12 PM



-- Edited by orid on Saturday 2nd of January 2021 02:06:10 PM



-- Edited by orid on Saturday 2nd of January 2021 02:06:46 PM

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Bobdown wrote

 Why not make a list of all the tugs,......... dual cabs, cruisers, patrols, rams, mitsi's, and list their max towing weight, tbw and weight they can carry in the tub or back of the wagon, just the max ATM loaded.

I don't think we need axle weights, gcm, gvm or everything else unless requested by the individual. It would be interesting just to know the Max for each vehicle.

Cheers Bob


 Hi Bob...I agree with your suggestion that a list of cars be drawn up,with claimed towing capacity,actual towing capacity,(and why that claimed towing capacity is not achievable with a PIG trailer) tbw,GVM etc,but axle weights are critical, as this is what people don't understand.Your setup might be fine for GVM,fine for towball weight,fine for GCM and fine for ATM,but usually the rear axle is the limiting factor.This may be fine for the scalies etc,but if you have an accident,and you are found to be overloaded on the car's rear axle,you're gone.Very few cars can carry much in the 'tub' or back of the car if they are running with the universally accepted 10% safe towball weight and a heavy van.One of the most important things,in my view,is that we illustrate how a WDH works,as most seem to believe that it reduces towball weight.It does not.Any weight is removed from the car's rear axle,with about 70% of that weight going on to the car's front axle,and 30% onto the van's axle group.Because towball weight has not changed,but there is more weight on the van's axle group,you may well exceed your GTM and,indeed,your ATM rating......no insurance.               It might be best if Mike simply gives me a list of questions,which I will answer,along with detailed explanations of my reasoning and my calculations with each reply.Because diplomacy has never been my strong point,he then might like to edit my stuff,I could check that any intended meaning has not been inadvertently altered,and it could be documented.I am happy to run with whatever Mike suggests,but I am not flash on computers,and know nothing about such things as Microsoft Words etc.Just spotted Mike's suggestion that any document be subject to a "satisfactory peer review", but  I'm not sure what this means? If it means that the document will be scrutinised by the very people we're trying to teach,we're snookered on the black......but I may well be misunderstanding Mike's intention.Cheers                                                                                                


 The explanation should be kept as short as possible Chris, claimed and actual towing capacity is good.

The old sayin is KISS............keep it simple stupid, 

Cheers Bob



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DMaxer wrote:

Maybe Doug could knock one up on WDH and I could do something similar on the necessity of generators.




biggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin

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 orid wrote:


oldbloke wrote:


Greg 1 wrote:


Whilst all you blokes know your weights backwards, at least I hope you do, there is often a new chum asking about that subject on here. Are you going to deny them the right to that information just because you have heard it all before or you want to shoot the messenger? If you aren't interested don't read the post. Simples.


 Correct.

Weights takes a bit to understand.  What we really need here is a SIMPLE/lay explanation of weights. Or some simple examples. Not rambling words and subjective opinions.


 just been reading this thread  ,always a good important subject in my opinion , good idea ,simple /lay explanation of weights .

Not so easy ,

BUT

people still tend to put their head in the sand as soon as they start to get suspicious that they are over the legal limit. YOU CAN'T FACE THE TRUTH !!!!! 

https://youtu.be/0M1WTikKoAQ

   Kudos to yobarr for his perserverence on these matters ,that is not appreciated by many. And yes he has helped me with my setup.

Regards Orid



-- Edited by orid on Saturday 2nd of January 2021 02:00:12 PM


Thankyou Peter,for your kind words.Perhaps I should mention the reaction that I received when I once wrote about  "....the head in the sand brigade"? Many were not impressed with the replies they received but,as you suggest,they simply can't stand the truth,with the mob mentality quickly setting  in! Some owners of overweight and illegal setups seem to ask questions in the vain hope that they will get the answer they want to hear. Many seem to not be appreciative when  the truth is presented.And I would like to say that I am happy that I was able to help you with your setup.Happy New Year to you and your kin.Cheers.



-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 2nd of January 2021 05:24:36 PM

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We all have a certain amount of freedom here with obvious limits. So by all means exercise your freedom. Call comments childish, in the playground...whatever. and some will exercise their right to display annoyance to exercise the same freedom you claim we have no right to. As for the overall result it seems we might have some progress...possible from debate! Tony

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