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Post Info TOPIC: Towing Limitations Discussed


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I for one find Yobarr's posts on weights very informative and hope they do not stop........cheers Bilbo



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A lot of people just dont understand the importance of towing weights

Ill be the first to admit ,I purchased new car and van ,and was very carefull ,having had a major weight problem in the past with a new motorhome.

Even so I still goofed ,

To tow the van legal ,I had to take out the car rear seats ,leave the car spare at home, and only fill the car half tank fuel. Plus be very carefull on the gear we took.

Later I had a scary experience, on the way to Bridgetown in the SW of WA .

Going down hill quite windy concentration lapsed and speed had crept up to 100kph (I usually try to keep 80-90especially when windy .

There was a large bend at the bottom no worry for any concern normally. there was no sway on the van that i noticed

I suddenly found we were on the wrong side of the road ,I had no control the car and van just kept going straight.

Managed to slow and regain steering ,pulled over to get my wits back and convince my wife and myself that it was just an odd incident . (My head in the sand moment }

I think combination of the wind and those dreaded axle weights where to blame .

To top it off ( I swear this is the truth} just after I managed to get the rig on the correct side of the road around the bend from the other way came a large semi.

absolutely frightening .

I have since purchased another tug , which yobarr is not that keen on LOL LOL but feels much better towing and is well within what I need

BTW Can I ask any one else had a odd experience they can share???

Best Regards Orid


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sry double post



-- Edited by orid on Saturday 2nd of January 2021 04:28:40 PM

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Orid, I lived in Bridgetown for nearly 15 years and have seen 3 vans on their roof at the bottom of the hill, near the dog kennels, all heading South on a seemingly simple hill. 

All 3 ended up on the wrong side of the road in the verge, one completely shattered, very deceiving descent that can quickly get away from you and the corner at the bottom as well, to negotiate.

Be safe, cheers Bob



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that sounds very similar Bob ,
We were very very lucky , scary thing is my weights were legal and I wasnt going over 100kph and still happened .


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bilbo wrote:

I for one find Yobarr's posts on weights very informative and hope they do not stop........cheers Bilbo


 Thanks Doug,for your kind words.Always I try to help others understand their weights,although sometimes I allow myself to be demoralised by the contrary rubbish sprouted by some,who are adamant that they know 'stuff' when in fact they are ignorant of the real facts.Happy New Year to you and your kin.Cheers 

P.S This year I plan to be in Darwin,so perhaps we could meet for coffee.....many moons ago I lived in Nightcliffe!



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Have a safe trip yobarr and get yourself one of those WDH things. You will be so glad you did. LOL.

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Jeez, reading through some of the posts on here it is clear that many cannot tell the difference between a rating and a weight.
It is also abundantly clear that it is unlikely that they ever will!

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wes alls knows whats we means, cause wes been edumacated like proper mate, hows about wes says


Axle weight ratings is that betters fer yers ? montie?

lol Orid



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New report; From Caravan Council attached; 

It is reasonable to expect that all Dealers should provide adequate professional written information on the vital aspects of Ratings and Masses to all caravan buyers,  

 

However, it is also reasonable to expect that all Caravanners will have the initiative to take the time to study the Owner Manuals supplied with both the tow-vehicle and the caravan, along with the Definitions of the relevant Ratings and Masses in Vehicle Standards Bulletin No: 1 (VSB1)  

 

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx    

 

so that they clearly understand the importance of ensuring compliance with the Regulations.  

 

The ATM & GTM are fixed "Ratingsallocated by the Manufacturer using an engineering assessment in relation to the maximum-permissible "All-Up" & "Axle(s)" limits.  

 

The Tare Mass of a caravan is the "mass of the completely-empty caravan, as it leaves the Dealer (Supplier), fitted with all items that were stated on the Sales Contract. 

Repeat Tare Mass is when the caravan leaves the Supplier not the Manufacturer!

 

The Empty Ball-Loading is an "actual mass" - that must be measured - and is obviously applicable only for the empty (Tare Mass) condition.   It has no relationship whatsoever to the ATM Rating or the GTM Rating.  



-- Edited by Possum3 on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 09:51:24 AM

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Really dont see the point it will only get turned into a nothing *compares or competes* thread the same as every other thread that references weights .

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Possum3 wrote:

New report; From Caravan Council attached; 

It is reasonable to expect that all Dealers should provide adequate professional written information on the vital aspects of Ratings and Masses to all caravan buyers,                                                                                                                    However, it is also reasonable to expect that all Caravanners will have the initiative to take the time to study the Owner Manuals supplied with both the tow-vehicle and the caravan, along with the Definitions of the relevant Ratings and Masses in Vehicle Standards Bulletin No: 1 (VSB1)  

 

 https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx    

 

 so that they clearly understand the importance of ensuring compliance with the Regulations.  

 

 The ATM & GTM are fixed "Ratingsallocated by the Manufacturer using an engineering assessment in relation to the maximum-permissible "All-Up" & "Axle(s)" limits.  

 

 The Tare Mass of a caravan is the "mass of the completely-empty caravan, as it leaves the Dealer (Supplier), fitted with all items that were stated on the Sales Contract. 

Repeat Tare Mass is when the caravan leaves the Supplier not the Manufacturer!

 The Empty Ball-Loading is an "actual mass" - that must be measured - and is obviously applicable only for the empty (Tare Mass) condition.   It has no relationship whatsoever to the ATM Rating or the GTM Rating.  

-- Edited by Possum3 on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 09:51:24 AM


 Hi Possum...whilst this document no doubt has merit,the average Joe Blow wouldn't have a clue what it all means! Learning the various terms,such as ATM,GVM et al is all very good, but unless people understand how these ratings and weights are related to each other,we're shooting in the dark. What is needed is clear and simple answers to questions that are posed by owners, because as soon as someone is confused,or doesn't really understand,Bravado takes over,it all goes into the 'too hard' basket, and the 'she'll be right' attitude flourishes.For example,how many people understand that the weight that is applied to a car's rear axle when a van is hooked up is around 145-150% of the actual towball weight? On one popular towing model,this means that a 350kg towball weight puts more than 520kg onto that car's low-capacity rear axle....very quickly the car is overloaded,unsafe and uninsured.THESE are the things that people need help with....not pages and pages of official gobbledy-gook.Tare means nothing.....it is simply a one-off measurement as the van leaves the supplier? My van's compliance plate shows tare as 1740kg,but I can run at 3500kg ATM and my 6800kg GCM rating,legal on all axles etc.Enough for now,but things need to be well explained,and easily understood if we're going to get anywhere.Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 11:07:10 AM



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 11:15:55 AM

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Possum3 wrote:

New report; From Caravan Council attached; 

It is reasonable to expect that all Dealers should provide adequate professional written information on the vital aspects of Ratings and Masses to all caravan buyers,  

 

However, it is also reasonable to expect that all Caravanners will have the initiative to take the time to study the Owner Manuals supplied with both the tow-vehicle and the caravan, along with the Definitions of the relevant Ratings and Masses in Vehicle Standards Bulletin No: 1 (VSB1)  

 

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx    

 

so that they clearly understand the importance of ensuring compliance with the Regulations.  

 

The ATM & GTM are fixed "Ratingsallocated by the Manufacturer using an engineering assessment in relation to the maximum-permissible "All-Up" & "Axle(s)" limits.  

 

The Tare Mass of a caravan is the "mass of the completely-empty caravan, as it leaves the Dealer (Supplier), fitted with all items that were stated on the Sales Contract. 

Repeat Tare Mass is when the caravan leaves the Supplier not the Manufacturer!

 

The Empty Ball-Loading is an "actual mass" - that must be measured - and is obviously applicable only for the empty (Tare Mass) condition.   It has no relationship whatsoever to the ATM Rating or the GTM Rating.  



-- Edited by Possum3 on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 09:51:24 AM


 The plated tare on a caravan is the measured weight of the dry empty van when it leaves the manufacturer not the dealer. Obviously that weight changes when the dealer performs a pre delivery.

Plated GTM is calculated by subtracting the plated ball weight, which is measured by the manufacturer,  from the ATM and as such does not constitute a rating. The two ratings for a caravan are ATM and Axle Group Rating both of which are stamped on the plate.

Some (Not many) van manufacturers set a maximum ball rating for the caravan but mostly the ball rating to be observed is the tug rating.

There is simply too much misinformation out there.



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montie wrote:
Possum3 wrote:

New report; From Caravan Council attached; 

It is reasonable to expect that all Dealers should provide adequate professional written information on the vital aspects of Ratings and Masses to all caravan buyers,  

 

However, it is also reasonable to expect that all Caravanners will have the initiative to take the time to study the Owner Manuals supplied with both the tow-vehicle and the caravan, along with the Definitions of the relevant Ratings and Masses in Vehicle Standards Bulletin No: 1 (VSB1)  

 

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx    

 

so that they clearly understand the importance of ensuring compliance with the Regulations.  

 

The ATM & GTM are fixed "Ratingsallocated by the Manufacturer using an engineering assessment in relation to the maximum-permissible "All-Up" & "Axle(s)" limits.  

 

The Tare Mass of a caravan is the "mass of the completely-empty caravan, as it leaves the Dealer (Supplier), fitted with all items that were stated on the Sales Contract. 

Repeat Tare Mass is when the caravan leaves the Supplier not the Manufacturer!

 

The Empty Ball-Loading is an "actual mass" - that must be measured - and is obviously applicable only for the empty (Tare Mass) condition.   It has no relationship whatsoever to the ATM Rating or the GTM Rating.  



-- Edited by Possum3 on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 09:51:24 AM


 The plated tare on a caravan is the measured weight of the dry empty van when it leaves the manufacturer not the dealer. Obviously that weight changes when the dealer performs a pre delivery.

Plated GTM is calculated by subtracting the plated ball weight, which is measured by the manufacturer,  from the ATM and as such does not constitute a rating. The two ratings for a caravan are ATM and Axle Group Rating both of which are stamped on the plate.

Some (Not many) van manufacturers set a maximum ball rating for the caravan but mostly the ball rating to be observed is the tug rating.

There is simply too much misinformation out there.


 Thanks for clarifying that,Montie.This is a perfect example of how easily things can be confused,as I simply believed the highlighted information in Possum's post,which,to me,looked official? Not so,it seems? Cheers



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How can predelivery change the tare?

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oldbloke wrote:

How can predelivery change the tare?


 Fill gas bottles and water tanks for a start, plus any options if any fitted at owners request.

 



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Whomever the expert is; The MANDATORY requirements that apply are Australian Regulations
Definitions of the relevant Ratings and Masses in Vehicle Standards Bulletin No: 1 (VSB1)



www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx

It is these regulations that Insurance Companies use and Police in all States enforce.

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Nowhere in VSB1 does it state that the van plated tare is the weight of the van when it leaves the dealer. VSB1 defines tare with empty tanks.

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Only empty water tanks. It is silent with regards gas bottles. If fact it defines tare as all fluids filled with the exception of water and sullage tanks and in the case of a self propelled vehicle, to have 10 litres of fuel.

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montie wrote:

Nowhere in VSB1 does it state that the van plated tare is the weight of the van when it leaves the dealer. 

 From VSB1; Tare Mass is the total mass of the trailer when not carrying any load, but when ready for service, unoccupied (if relevant) and with all fluid reservoirs (if fitted) filled to nominal capacity except for fuel, which shall be 10 litres only, and with all standard equipment and any options fitted. This includes any mass imposed onto the drawing vehicle when the combination vehicle is resting on a horizontal supporting plane. (Fluid reservoirs do not include water tanks and waste water tanks fitted to caravans).

Pretty clear to me.



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Possum3 wrote:
montie wrote:

Nowhere in VSB1 does it state that the van plated tare is the weight of the van when it leaves the dealer. 

 From VSB1; Tare Mass is the total mass of the trailer when not carrying any load, but when ready for service, unoccupied (if relevant) and with all fluid reservoirs (if fitted) filled to nominal capacity except for fuel, which shall be 10 litres only, and with all standard equipment and any options fitted. This includes any mass imposed onto the drawing vehicle when the combination vehicle is resting on a horizontal supporting plane. (Fluid reservoirs do not include water tanks and waste water tanks fitted to caravans).

 

Pretty clear to me.


 Absolutely.....empty tanks and all options fitted. Weighed by the manufacturer and weight stamped on plate. That is the plated Tare of the van.

 

The dealer cannot stamp the plate.

Dealer fills the tanks during pre delivery which increases the measured Tare.

The manufacturer weighs the van and stamps the tare weight on the plate...that's the reality.

All pretty simple really.



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Greg 1 wrote:

Only empty water tanks. It is silent with regards gas bottles. If fact it defines tare as all fluids filled with the exception of water and sullage tanks and in the case of a self propelled vehicle, to have 10 litres of fuel.


 Manufacturer's do not fill gas bottles so the plated tare will not include any gas in them. They use their own gas bottle to do tests and then fit the empty bottles before weighing the van. Truckies don't like  full gas bottles during transport.

The dealer fills the gas bottles on pre delivery.



-- Edited by montie on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 05:54:10 PM

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Just don't know why people get so agro....

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vince56 wrote:

Just don't know why people get so agro....


 Who's getting aggro Vince? All that is happening is that opposing views are being presented,and discussed.Cheers

 

7C5C10C8-3424-4709-B7E0-00A421B21B13.png



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 08:26:55 PM

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OK, some dealers put gas and/or water in tanks. Explained.
When i picked up mine there was no gas or water. So I was puzzled.

Are things like mattress & TV included in the tare?

This thread is making me wonder how accurate most
Weigh bridges are??
I've weighed mine and struggle to see the 450kg that is supposedly in the van. (No water) I know it adds up but I just keep scratching my head.

Will weigh it again when the opportunity is presented.



-- Edited by oldbloke on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 11:32:08 PM

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oldbloke wrote:

OK, some dealers put gas and/or water in tanks. Explained.
When i picked up mine there was no gas or water. So I was puzzled.

Are things like mattress & TV included in the tare?

This thread is making me wonder how accurate most
Weigh bridges are??
I've weighed mine and struggle to see the 450kg that is supposedly in the van. (No water) I know it adds up but I just keep scratching my head.

Will weigh it again when the opportunity is presented.



-- Edited by oldbloke on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 11:32:08 PM


 Ok, The manufacturer weighs the dry empty van before it leaves the factory and stamps that weight on the compliance plate. If you subtract that weight from the plated ATM it will give you your gross payload. As an example if that is say 450kg that means your total allowance for water, gas, belongings and any extras you fit must not exceed that figure.

Let's say the dealer fills the tanks and supplies hoses and leads totalling say 200kg then that gives you a net payload of 250kg for all your gear. If you choose to travel with less water in the tanks then that will give a bit more room weight wise. A word of warning about travelling with empty or half empty tanks....check your ball weight before setting off.

Mattresses and tv(s) are included in the plated tare. Only items fitted after the van leaves the factory will not be included. The vast majority of dealers these days get all extras fitted by the manufacturer. That way they are included in the plated tare and covered by the factory warranty.



-- Edited by montie on Monday 4th of January 2021 07:29:50 AM

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oldbloke wrote:

OK, some dealers put gas and/or water in tanks. Explained.
When i picked up mine there was no gas or water. So I was puzzled.

Are things like mattress & TV included in the tare?

This thread is making me wonder how accurate most
Weigh bridges are??


I've weighed mine and struggle to see the 450kg that is supposedly in the van. (No water) I know it adds up but I just keep scratching my head.


 Hi Oldbloke, 

A couple of years back we had the need to place our hail damaged caravan in to the repairer, so to make his job a little easier I removed gass bottles, spare tyre, bedding, everything that was loose in the caravan.

A month latter when I picked the caravan up I made sure the ute was more or less empty also so we could weigh the combination and have a real tare weight. The caravan come in at 123 kgs lighter then the plated tare weight.

How good is weighbridge weights, from my only experience back around 1970 the quarry where I was the weighbridge operater each week I was to weigh a truck trice, once in a forward direction and then have it enter from the other with our 20 foot weighbridge. The weigh was needed to be the same. If there was a sight variation we were required to have it recalibrated. Once a year the bridge was tested and certified.

 



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It would be good if Cindy could move this thread and others to the new 'Weights and measures' sub forum in 'Techies Corner' that way they will be all together for those interested now and later down the track.

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-- Edited by oldbloke on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 11:32:08 PM


 Ok, The manufacturer weighs the dry empty van before it leaves the factory and stamps that weight on the compliance plate. If you subtract that weight from the plated ATM it will give you your gross payload. As an example if that is say 450kg that means your total allowance for water, gas, belongings and any extras you fit must not exceed that figure.

Let's say the dealer fills the tanks and supplies hoses and leads totalling say 200kg then that gives you a net payload of 250kg for all your gear. If you choose to travel with less water in the tanks then that will give a bit more room weight wise. A word of warning about travelling with empty or half empty tanks....check your ball weight before setting off.

Mattresses and tv(s) are included in the plated tare. Only items fitted after the van leaves the factory will not be included. The vast majority of dealers these days get all extras fitted by the manufacturer. That way they are included in the plated tare and covered by the factory warranty.



-- Edited by montie on Monday 4th of January 2021 07:29:50 AM

From personal experience .!!! 

Best to get the vehicle re - weighed before purchasing. And get  the paperwork .   if you are really careful like me . 

no matter what the plate says.

Please trust me on this.

Regards Orid

 



-- Edited by orid on Monday 4th of January 2021 02:02:49 PM



-- Edited by orid on Monday 4th of January 2021 02:04:04 PM

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Once the van has been pre delivered and loaded for travel tare is no longer relevant.

The fully loaded van when weighed unhitched must not legally exceed the plated ATM.



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