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Post Info TOPIC: Towing Limitations Discussed


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RE: Towing Limitations Discussed
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montie wrote:

Once the van has been pre delivered and loaded for travel tare is no longer relevant.

The fully loaded van when weighed unhitched must not legally exceed the plated ATM.


Agreed   montie , 

But If I am purchasing a van ,I check the plate  for instance says 2000kg tare   ATM 2500 looks ok  to me  if that tare is incorrect ( which does happen ) say it is  2200kg add a few extras like solar, you re in trouble .

Regards Orid

 

 



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Never purchase ANY RV without a current weigh certificate.
Cheers,
Peter

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It is interesting that people buying firth wheeler horse floats run into problems with weights and measures legalities.

They know a lot about horses but very little about weights.



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Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

Never purchase ANY RV without a current weigh certificate.
Cheers,
Peter


 

Yeh  we got one. But I think its in storage with the van. I think I'll dig it out next week when we go the check the van.



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Radar wrote:

It is interesting that people buying firth wheeler horse floats run into problems with weights and measures legalities.

They know a lot about horses but very little about weights.


Personally, I think, like myself when people buy t heir first van they know very little and usually simply confused. 

Later it simply gets too hard.



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Radar wrote:

It is interesting that people buying firth wheeler horse floats run into problems with weights and measures legalities.

They know a lot about horses but very little about weights.


Personally, I think, like myself when people buy t heir first van they know very little and usually simply confused. 

Later it simply gets too hard.



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oldbloke wrote:
Radar wrote:

It is interesting that people buying firth wheeler horse floats run into problems with weights and measures legalities.

They know a lot about horses but very little about weights.


Personally, I think, like myself when people buy their first van they know very little and usually simply confused. 

Later it simply gets too hard.


 Absolutely right Neil.....and new caravanners are often negatively influenced by salesmen who never will compromise their commission-based income by revealing the truth about the limitations of the cars or the vans that they are selling. And once the truth is revealed,often the 'she'll be right" attitude prevails.One thing that I have noticed since being a member here is that many do not join us until they have encountered a problem,and need help after being conned,joining only to seek advice on sorting it.Too late....they need to get advice before they stuff-up.How can we do this,I wonder? Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 4th of January 2021 05:29:47 PM

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yobarr wrote:
One thing that I have noticed since being a member here is that many do not join us until they have encountered a problem,and need help after being conned,joining only to seek advice on sorting it.Too late....they need to get advice before they stuff-up.How can we do this,I wonder? Cheers

 

Giving sound and factual advice is the only answer - Too many Motor & Caravan Dealers disregard basic Engineering principles because of their personal interests & distorting/confusing customers in an attempt to void genuine warranty problems. The Consumer Group Choice and the ACCC have been attempting to properly regulate the Industry but with a multi-billion dollar industry fighting all the way it is difficult. Justice will overcome as The Law is Law because Law is Law ( I'm sure student D Max would have heard that before).  



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As far as horse people go most don't care. Walk around the horse floats at any horse event and there will be a big percentage of very poorly maintained floats, most with faulty brakes, poorly adjusted wheel bearings, some with dodgy floors and a pile of other unroadworthy items. I remember giving lectures in the pony club movement about the need for proper maintenance and part of that the class had to do a walk around the float park to view the horrors that people committed the safety of their expensive horse to.

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OK. An example. Can the Gurus explain to me the situation?
Can the owner put more in the van? (note the water tanks are empty) If so how much?

How can he manage the weight better?

 

 

Let me know if more info is needed. Van tows well with a WDH. All suggestions welcome. BUT NO sh1t fights please.

 

Van weightsJPG.JPG



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oldbloke wrote:

OK. An example. Can the Gurus explain to me the situation?
Can the owner put more in the van? (note the water tanks are empty) If so how much?

How can he manage the weight better?

 

 

Let me know if more info is needed. Van tows well with a WDH. All suggestions welcome. BUT NO sh1t fights please.

 

Van weightsJPG.JPG


 Oldbloke,

At a glance you have 28kg to spare, however if your tanks are empty you have a problem, if they are 80% as you state then you are ok but on the limit.

You have an overload of information....just concentrate on the ratings which are GVM, ATM, GCM and tug ball rating.



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montie wrote:
Possum3 wrote:

New report; From Caravan Council attached; 

It is reasonable to expect that all Dealers should provide adequate professional written information on the vital aspects of Ratings and Masses to all caravan buyers,  

 

However, it is also reasonable to expect that all Caravanners will have the initiative to take the time to study the Owner Manuals supplied with both the tow-vehicle and the caravan, along with the Definitions of the relevant Ratings and Masses in Vehicle Standards Bulletin No: 1 (VSB1)  

 

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx    

 

so that they clearly understand the importance of ensuring compliance with the Regulations.  

 

The ATM & GTM are fixed "Ratingsallocated by the Manufacturer using an engineering assessment in relation to the maximum-permissible "All-Up" & "Axle(s)" limits.  

 

The Tare Mass of a caravan is the "mass of the completely-empty caravan, as it leaves the Dealer (Supplier), fitted with all items that were stated on the Sales Contract. 

Repeat Tare Mass is when the caravan leaves the Supplier not the Manufacturer!

 

The Empty Ball-Loading is an "actual mass" - that must be measured - and is obviously applicable only for the empty (Tare Mass) condition.   It has no relationship whatsoever to the ATM Rating or the GTM Rating.  



-- Edited by Possum3 on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 09:51:24 AM


 The plated tare on a caravan is the measured weight of the dry empty van when it leaves the manufacturer not the dealer. Obviously that weight changes when the dealer performs a pre delivery.

Plated GTM is calculated by subtracting the plated ball weight, which is measured by the manufacturer,  from the ATM and as such does not constitute a rating. The two ratings for a caravan are ATM and Axle Group Rating both of which are stamped on the plate.

Some (Not many) van manufacturers set a maximum ball rating for the caravan but mostly the ball rating to be observed is the tug rating.

There is simply too much misinformation out there.


 Really,

I bought my current van two and a half years ago new from a dealer and they supplied a weigh note dated the morning I picked my van up.

The weigh note matched the compliance plate tare very closely so that I was fully aware that my van could legally load the projected payload.

I was fortunate and happy that my dealer stated the facts as were truthful and not let me assume that my legal payload might be based on a tare to GTM ratio that would have me believe that I may load more weight than I legally could.

As others have said, do not buy a van without a weigh note of the tare weight on the day of delivery and dont go on the word of a van salesman or dealer principal that states otherwise.

There are unfortunately many dealers that will put a sale over the safety and requirements of the consumer.

Regards

Rob

 



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bentaxlebabe wrote:
montie wrote:
Possum3 wrote:

New report; From Caravan Council attached; 

It is reasonable to expect that all Dealers should provide adequate professional written information on the vital aspects of Ratings and Masses to all caravan buyers,  

 

However, it is also reasonable to expect that all Caravanners will have the initiative to take the time to study the Owner Manuals supplied with both the tow-vehicle and the caravan, along with the Definitions of the relevant Ratings and Masses in Vehicle Standards Bulletin No: 1 (VSB1)  

 

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx    

 

so that they clearly understand the importance of ensuring compliance with the Regulations.  

 

The ATM & GTM are fixed "Ratingsallocated by the Manufacturer using an engineering assessment in relation to the maximum-permissible "All-Up" & "Axle(s)" limits.  

 

The Tare Mass of a caravan is the "mass of the completely-empty caravan, as it leaves the Dealer (Supplier), fitted with all items that were stated on the Sales Contract. 

Repeat Tare Mass is when the caravan leaves the Supplier not the Manufacturer!

 

The Empty Ball-Loading is an "actual mass" - that must be measured - and is obviously applicable only for the empty (Tare Mass) condition.   It has no relationship whatsoever to the ATM Rating or the GTM Rating.  



-- Edited by Possum3 on Sunday 3rd of January 2021 09:51:24 AM


 The plated tare on a caravan is the measured weight of the dry empty van when it leaves the manufacturer not the dealer. Obviously that weight changes when the dealer performs a pre delivery.

Plated GTM is calculated by subtracting the plated ball weight, which is measured by the manufacturer,  from the ATM and as such does not constitute a rating. The two ratings for a caravan are ATM and Axle Group Rating both of which are stamped on the plate.

Some (Not many) van manufacturers set a maximum ball rating for the caravan but mostly the ball rating to be observed is the tug rating.

There is simply too much misinformation out there.


 Really,

I bought my current van two and a half years ago new from a dealer and they supplied a weigh note dated the morning I picked my van up.

The weigh note matched the compliance plate tare very closely so that I was fully aware that my van could legally load the projected payload.

I was fortunate and happy that my dealer stated the facts as were truthful and not let me assume that my legal payload might be based on a tare to GTM ratio that would have me believe that I may load more weight than I legally could.

As others have said, do not buy a van without a weigh note of the tare weight on the day of delivery and dont go on the word of a van salesman or dealer principal that states otherwise.

There are unfortunately many dealers that will put a sale over the safety and requirements of the consumer.

Regards

Rob

 


 What is Tare to GTM ratio?



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montie wrote:
oldbloke wrote:

OK. An example. Can the Gurus explain to me the situation?
Can the owner put more in the van? (note the water tanks are empty) If so how much?

How can he manage the weight better?

 

 

Let me know if more info is needed. Van tows well with a WDH. All suggestions welcome. BUT NO sh1t fights please.

 

Van weightsJPG.JPG


 Oldbloke,

At a glance you have 28kg to spare, however if your tanks are empty you have a problem, if they are 80% as you state then you are ok but on the limit.

You have an overload of information....just concentrate on the ratings which are GVM, ATM, GCM and tug ball rating.


 Ute fuel tank was about 80%  full.

 

Van water tanks empty.

 

Do I understand this correctly. There is 462kg in the van?



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Hallelujah!



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oldbloke wrote:
montie wrote:
oldbloke wrote:

OK. An example. Can the Gurus explain to me the situation?
Can the owner put more in the van? (note the water tanks are empty) If so how much?

How can he manage the weight better?

 

 

Let me know if more info is needed. Van tows well with a WDH. All suggestions welcome. BUT NO sh1t fights please.

 

Van weightsJPG.JPG


 Oldbloke,

At a glance you have 28kg to spare, however if your tanks are empty you have a problem, if they are 80% as you state then you are ok but on the limit.

You have an overload of information....just concentrate on the ratings which are GVM, ATM, GCM and tug ball rating.


 Ute fuel tank was about 80%  full.

 

Van water tanks empty.

 

Do I understand this correctly. There is 462kg in the van?


 It looks like you are within all your rated limits for GVM, ATM, GCM and ball weight, however with empty water tanks and only 28kg to spare on your ATM you will have to travel with empty tanks.

Based on a tare of 2010kg you have 462kg in the van which is pretty irrelevant as the important number now is the ATM.



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Ok. Thnx Montie. That is what i understood.

I've since lightened the van by about 25kg.
However still in trouble carrying water in tanks.


I'm convinced we don't have that much in the van.
I'll weigh again in a few months.


And SWMBO will not dump anymore....

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oldbloke wrote:

Ok. Thnx Montie. That is what i understood.

I've since lightened the van by about 25kg.
However still in trouble carrying water in tanks.
I'm convinced we don't have that much in the van.
I'll weigh again in a few months.
And SWMBO will not dump anymore....


 Hi Neil....when you did your weights with the van connected,was your WDH fitted,and,if so,was it tensioned?  Should be very easy to sort,but I take it that your car is an older model,as the GVM seems very low? 2014.....research shows 2wdL Is this correct? Bit busy now,but later today I'll have closer look for you.Cheers

 

 OK...I'll assume that these weights were done with the WDH in place,but not tensioned.The first thing to remember is that a tensioned WDH will add weight to your van's axle group,thus increasing your GTM which presently is 2200kg.Because a WDH will NOT change your existing 272kg towball weight,transferring only 28kg from your car's rear axle,to the van puts you right on your ATM rating of 2500kg.At the moment,your car weighs 2520kg with the van attached,so you have 240kg leeway.Can you transfer any weight from your van to your car? Because of the car's low 1840kg rear axle capacity,you will need to get this weight as far forward as possible to avoid overloading that axle,remembering that your 272kg towball weight will already have added OVER 400kg to that axle.Realistically,the best thing to do would be to increase your van's ATM to maybe 2700kg.This should be easy,as already you have axles rated at 2900kg,and towball limit of 301kg.Not sure what cost would be in Victoria to do this simple ATM upgrade,but cost  me only couple of hundred dollars in Queensland.Because many peoole have no idea about weights,your van was possibly given an ATM rating of 2500kg to avoid confusing buyers whose car was rated to tow only 2500kg, when in actual fact they could tow a van with an ATM rating of,say, 3000kg provided it was not loaded over 2500kg.If you did choose to upgrade your ATM to 2700kg,assuming 10% towball weight,you then would have a loaded van with GTM of 2430kg behind a car with weight on wheels (GVM if you like) of maybe 2650kg.The car would thus be around 9% heavier than the car,and very safe.The using of a WDH will slightly change these figures,but very easy to manage.Because you now have an extra 200kg ATM,you can carry heaps of water,but the tanks would need to be over,or very close to,your van's axles.Hope this helps? Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 12:41:50 PM

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Thnx Yobarr,
Good pick up. Checked on ute door and GVM should be 2900. So I have made the adjustment. Checked the brochure & looks like Ute Tare was wrong too. So have and have adjusted that too.

Van rim size is 15". On the plate.

When weighed the HR WDH was connected. No idea how many links but typically 2
As mentioned earlier I have since dropped a bit of weight so I estimate 55kg to spare now in van.


I am aware I have plenty to spare in the ute.

We have two water tanks 95 litres each.

How do I manage it at the moment?
Van water tanks usually empty of perhaps 50%. (So up to say 50kg over weight) + 50 litres of water in ute. (so total about 145 ltrs of water) If staying bush more than 2 days I top up the water tanks as late as possible and drive over weight to the bush camp. (so about 130 kg over weight)
I dont recall what was in the van but I now also carry more stuff in the ute than I did before. e.g beer & groceries. (perhaps another 20kg)
Although it's not right I have at this stage accepted I cant really do it any other way. Its now an ongoing project to try and reduce the van weight.
I did have a comprehensive list of what is normally in the van but cant find it. When I guestimated (some stuff was weighed some guessed) the weight/payload I expected to be well within the van payload. When I did this included gas in bottles, HWS 20 ltrs, and all cutlery, food, clothes, everything etc. So, surprised I'm "on the edge" with empty water tanks.

I think I'm typical, see below

OB

 

Van Weights V2.JPG



-- Edited by oldbloke on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 10:29:46 AM

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Hi Neil....you made your last post while I was writing,so shortly I will again check your figures to see how it all looks.Cheers

OK...it looks to be not as bad as we initially thought,so I will wait for your response to my suggestion to slightly increase the van's ATM .Bear in mind that although your car is rated to tow 3000kg,this cannot be done safely.Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 12:34:24 PM

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Van rim size is 15". On the plate.

When I weighed the van the HR WDH was connected. Unsure how many links but typically its 2.

Should it be weighed with WDH not connected?

How much is that going to typically add the the GVM?

I did contact the maker twice about raising the ATM to 2700 some time ago. But they never got back to me.

Would still be interested if cost is not high.



-- Edited by oldbloke on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 02:15:12 PM

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oldbloke wrote:


Van rim size is 15". On the plate.

When wlI weighed the van the HR WDH was connected. Unsure how many links but typically its 2.

Should it be wrighed with WDH not connectedness?

How much is that going to typically add the the GVM?

I did contact the maker twice about raising the ATM to 2700 some time ago. But they never hot back to me.

Would still be interested if cost is not high.


 Raising van's ATM would be the best option,I believe,as the only reason it is so low,in my opinion,is outlined in my previous post.You should weigh with WDH tensioned,as if you were set to travel.Don't worry about rim size......I simply was covering the options,but no longer relevant. Change in weight of car (GVM?) is dependent on how much you tension WDH,but in most situations,if you removed 100kg from the car's rear axle,around 70kg would be returned to the front axle,with the other 30% being put onto the van's axle group.These figures are a generalisation,as everything depends on wheelbase of car,TBO (towball overhang,or distance from rear axle of car to hitchpoint/towball),and distance from hitchpoint to rear axis of caravan.Your car has wheelbase of 3000mm,but TBO is huge,which is why the chassis of these cars are easily bent.....but that's a different story.I've lost all my contacts in Geelong,but any caravan repair place,or sales outlet,should be able to help....forget the maker.All you need is a certified engineer.Again I will say....raise the ATM.Easy.Hope this helps you? Cheers



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Yobarr,
Distance from rear axel to tow ball using HR coupling is 1700...give or take with my tape measure.

Just got onto maker and emailed them pics of the plates. May be willing to upgrade. But need to re weigh tare. PITA. And lots of driving involved. Van is not at home.

Will chat to an engineer I know tomorrow.

Cant get onto vic roads ATM.

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oldbloke wrote:

Yobarr,
Distance from rear axel to tow ball using HR coupling is 1700...give or take with my tape measure.

Just got onto maker and emailed them pics of the plates. May be willing to upgrade. But need to re weigh tare. PITA. And lots of driving involved. Van is not at home.

Will chat to an engineer I know tomorrow.

Cant get onto vic roads ATM.


Hi Neil...thanks for these figures,which show that a towball weight of 272kg puts over 424kg onto your car's rear axle.This means that around 150kg has been removed from the front axle.This weight can NEVER be returnd to that axle,which is why I suggested 2650kg top weight for your car,but this obviously is not accurate now that you have supplied new GVM of 2900kg.This figure now would be around 2800kg MAX.Cheers 



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oldbloke wrote:

Yobarr,
Distance from rear axel to tow ball using HR coupling is 1700...give or take with my tape measure.
Just got onto maker and emailed them pics of the plates. May be willing to upgrade. But need to re weigh tare. PITA. And lots of driving involved. Van is not at home.
Will chat to an engineer I know tomorrow.
Cant get onto vic roads ATM.


 Hi Neil...why on earth do they need a new tare? Your van will weigh heaps more than the factory tare shows.When I got my upgrade to 3500kg,the engineer didn't even look at the original tare.Your engineer will no doubt sort it for you.Again,I will say,forget the maker.Cheers



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Sooo, far from a rocket scientist here. But she said new tare weigh bridge docket was required by Vic roads. A puzzle to me.

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oldbloke wrote:

Sooo, far from a rocket scientist here. But she said new tare weigh bridge docket was required by Vic roads. A puzzle to me.


 Maybe different rules in Victoria,but I had no problem.Tare is irrelevant....all that matters is what your van weighs when you set sail. As long as you're under your ATM,GTM,GCM,and your towball weight is right,all is good! Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 07:59:46 PM

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When we had our caravan vin plate up graded with an extra 100kg, a representative from the local NSW agent inspected the caravan to verify that it was a original example of there product model, took a couple of snap shots and submitted the request.

The new vin plate arrived with the agreed 100 kgs made my job so good but 200kgs which I argued as chassis and axle ground would carry was rejected which would of been awesome.

Our caravan went from 2648 to 2748 kilograms, Queensland Department changed the paper work fuss free.

Just maybe the manufacturer wanted proof the caravan had not been excessively modified with add ons.



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The reason that you were not granted the 200kgs could have been your axle and brake size. If you are running 10" brakes, there is a good chance that your axles have a max loading of 1400kgs making the loading 2800kgs for the axle group. Beyond that the requirement is for heavier axles, 12" brakes and possibly a wheel size upgrade. The manufacturer may have felt nervous pushing the envelope too far if that was the case.

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Greg 1 wrote:

The reason that you were not granted the 200kgs could have been your axle and brake size. If you are running 10" brakes, there is a good chance that your axles have a max loading of 1400kgs making the loading 2800kgs for the axle group. Beyond that the requirement is for heavier axles, 12" brakes and possibly a wheel size upgrade. The manufacturer may have felt nervous pushing the envelope too far if that was the case.


Hi Greg...thanks for this post.The 2800kg axle group limit,brake suze and wheel size is what I was playing around with when I initially asked Neil what sized wheels his van had. However,he already has an axle group rating of 2900kg,so it didn't matter,as my suggestion was to upgrade ATM to 2700kg,which is top dollar for a Triton anyway,and well suited to Neil's needs. Cheers



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