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Post Info TOPIC: Towing Limitations Discussed


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Greg 1 wrote:

The reason that you were not granted the 200kgs could have been your axle and brake size. If you are running 10" brakes, there is a good chance that your axles have a max loading of 1400kgs making the loading 2800kgs for the axle group. Beyond that the requirement is for heavier axles, 12" brakes and possibly a wheel size upgrade. The manufacturer may have felt nervous pushing the envelope too far if that was the case.


 Yes, perhaps but at the time of our request the manufacturer would only do 100kgs by email. 

If we were prepared to take the caravan to Melbourne they would then consider more but we were only looking for a safety margin and 100kgs was enough without to much expense and time.

The axle group mass is  more then enough for the job in hand.



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These are the numbers I have been given for our new camper trailer, maybe it is the Bourbons I have just had but they do not seem to add up?

Ball Weight: 170Kg
Tare Weight: 1700Kg
ATM: 2250Kg (Upgradable)
Cargo Capacity: 420Kg (Upgradable)

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Yeh, 380kg

Not right

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BarneyBDB wrote:

These are the numbers I have been given for our new camper trailer, maybe it is the Bourbons I have just had but they do not seem to add up?

Ball Weight: 170Kg
Tare Weight: 1700Kg
ATM: 2250Kg (Upgradable)
Cargo Capacity: 420Kg (Upgradable)


 Gross payload 550kg.

2250 ATM less 1700 TARE



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My mistake.

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Hi everyone ..new here, been lurking for a while but now feel a need to share! ...

First, in NSW, they don't use the term "ATM" on the rego papers .. they use GVM, but I think it means the same, ie the total weight of the van wheels and jockey wheel on the ground.

Secondly, scanning the posts (most anyway), handbooks for vans are not always available. We bought our van second-hand just before Xmas and no handbook. It can also be very hard to find tug details. My Xtrail has the vehicle's GVM, together with its adjustment downwards as the towed weight increases, on a stick on label on the inside rear face of the drivers door, nothing I could find about its GVM in the vehicle handbook .....

And lastly, when we bought the van, I got caught out. No fault of the (private) seller I believe. I believed the compliance plate re Tare, 1,200Kg, and GVM (1,500 Kg) for our single axle 2005 Viscount Sportz (made by Gazal I understand ....) Imagine my feeling when, at the weighbridge, with about 100Kg of our stuff on board, almost empty water tank and one half bottle of gas, it weighed in at 1820Kg all up!.

Its currently undergoing a GVM upgrade which will probably involve axle, springs, brakes and tyres, providing, that is, that the chassis calculations say its strong enough ..... I expect it will cost an additional 20% of what I have already spent on it. HMM......

Could I have seen that it was overweight before purchase? Yes, in hindsight. Once I knew it was overweight, I had a look at the springs ... you know, properly LOOKED at them, not just assuming they were there ..... They were almost flat, with the rear hanger link pointing slightly back instead of slightly forward. If I ever buy another van (not likely as I am in my mid seventies, but you never know!) I'll certainly be LOOKING at the springs .....

I can't understand how the van could ever have had a tare weight of 1,200 Kg ..... Yes, its got aircon (take out 60Kg?), a battery (out goes another 50 Kg) and empty water tanks (10Kg including fittings?), oh and an awning (30Kg?) Take out my 100Kg, and that leaves the van at 1570 Kg empty ..... I wonder where all the other 370 Kg is hiding .....
Cheers

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Sorry to hear that story rocket, I'm sure there are many many more similar stories,

I was caught also on a brand new Motorhome , I know how you must feel, and it is not good.

Hope you sort it without too much worry.

Regards Orid

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rocketdriver wrote:

Hi everyone ..new here, been lurking for a while but now feel a need to share! ...

First, in NSW, they don't use the term "ATM" on the rego papers .. they use GVM, but I think it means the same, ie the total weight of the van wheels and jockey wheel on the ground.

Secondly, scanning the posts (most anyway), handbooks for vans are not always available. We bought our van second-hand just before Xmas and no handbook. It can also be very hard to find tug details. My Xtrail has the vehicle's GVM, together with its adjustment downwards as the towed weight increases, on a stick on label on the inside rear face of the drivers door, nothing I could find about its GVM in the vehicle handbook .....

And lastly, when we bought the van, I got caught out. No fault of the (private) seller I believe. I believed the compliance plate re Tare, 1,200Kg, and GVM (1,500 Kg) for our single axle 2005 Viscount Sportz (made by Gazal I understand ....) Imagine my feeling when, at the weighbridge, with about 100Kg of our stuff on board, almost empty water tank and one half bottle of gas, it weighed in at 1820Kg all up!.

Its currently undergoing a GVM upgrade which will probably involve axle, springs, brakes and tyres, providing, that is, that the chassis calculations say its strong enough ..... I expect it will cost an additional 20% of what I have already spent on it. HMM......

Could I have seen that it was overweight before purchase? Yes, in hindsight. Once I knew it was overweight, I had a look at the springs ... you know, properly LOOKED at them, not just assuming they were there ..... They were almost flat, with the rear hanger link pointing slightly back instead of slightly forward. If I ever buy another van (not likely as I am in my mid seventies, but you never know!) I'll certainly be LOOKING at the springs .....

I can't understand how the van could ever have had a tare weight of 1,200 Kg ..... Yes, its got aircon (take out 60Kg?), a battery (out goes another 50 Kg) and empty water tanks (10Kg including fittings?), oh and an awning (30Kg?) Take out my 100Kg, and that leaves the van at 1570 Kg empty ..... I wonder where all the other 370 Kg is hiding .....
Cheers


 Hi Martin.......My understanding is that GVM usually refers to motorised vehicles,with ATM used for trailers.Before you spend your hard-earned on modifying,it probably would be wise to investigate the towing capabilities and limitations of your car? If you could tell us what year,what model etc you may get some useful information.The XTrail is a relatavely small car,so your options may be limited.Probably not what you want to hear,but  better to find out now than after you spend money....Cheers



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hi Yobarr .... Re GVM / ATm ... yes but the NSW does not have the ability to use ATM on their documentation, so, apparently, they use GVM instead, meaning, I think, ATM for trailers.

Re Xtrail, yes, I know its light, but ours is a manual diesel and has a max towing capacity of 2000 Kg, max ball of 200 ..... It copes fine with the van as it is, cruising on the highway at 2000rpm, 80KPH in 5th out of 6. I'm asking the engineer to look at a weight upgrade that suits the Xtrail ....
cheers, and thankyou ...


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rocketdriver wrote:

hi Yobarr .... Re GVM / ATm ... yes but the NSW does not have the ability to use ATM on their documentation, so, apparently, they use GVM instead, meaning, I think, ATM for trailers.

Re Xtrail, yes, I know its light, but ours is a manual diesel and has a max towing capacity of 2000 Kg, max ball of 200 ..... It copes fine with the van as it is, cruising on the highway at 2000rpm, 80KPH in 5th out of 6. I'm asking the engineer to look at a weight upgrade that suits the Xtrail ....
cheers, and thankyou ...


 Hi Martin.....It is great to see that your car seems to be coping well,but weights are a nightmare for many,including newbies.Seems your car will cope OK with 2000kg ATM,BUT watch your car's rear axle weight.Capacity is very low,and will be reached quickly.A 200kg towball weight puts around 290kg onto that axle.Good luck,but please feel free to ask if you would like help with your weights.Cheers



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I'll just leave this here.


 

Method.jpg



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oldbloke wrote:


I'll just leave this here.

Method.jpg


 Hi Neil....this is a very good process,covering all weights,but.most importantly,leaving the WDH tensioned while doing those weights.The only thing I noted that was not mentioned is checking that the GTM didn't exceed the axle rating of the van.Thanks for putting this up.Cheers

P.S I know where you got this!



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Sooo,,, I weighed the van yesterday. As per above. (WDH NOT connected). I have found that even with water I will just scrape in if water tanks are full.

TBW, CVM, ATM , GTM , TBW all ok and easily limits.  ATM may go over perhaps 20kg at times. But not concerned about that. 


My conclusion is that last time I weighed everything I stuffed up. Perhaps the water tanks were half full. ? Who knows.

My question is....Yobar, why do you insist the WDH must be connected, YET two x Vic Roads people say the opposite. Remember this is about compliance?.



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oldbloke wrote:

Sooo,,, I weighed the van yesterday. As per above. (WDH NOT connected). I have found that even with water I will just scrape in if water tanks are full.

TBW, CVM, ATM , GTM , TBW all ok and easily limits.  ATM may go over perhaps 20kg at times. But not concerned about that. 


My conclusion is that last time I weighed everything I stuffed up. Perhaps the water tanks were half full. ? Who knows.

My question is....Yobar, why do you insist the WDH must be connected, YET two x Vic Roads people say the opposite. Remember this is about compliance?.


 Hi Neil...I would strongly contest Vic Roads claiming that the WDH must be disconnected.Commonsense,simple physics,and logic would suggest that the vehicle's weights applied to the ground should be measured as the vehicle is structured for travel.If you choose to use a WDH,weighing a vehicle without it being tensioned would give false readings. Who cares what the car and van weigh with the WDH not tensioned? All those weights go out the window once the car and van are set to travel.Please refer to the second paragraph in the script by the VR enforcement officer..."With WDH in place".This surely is the ONLY way to determine actual weights applied to the road by any vehicle that has one attached. Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 28th of February 2021 06:04:29 AM

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oldbloke wrote:

Sooo,,, I weighed the van yesterday. As per above. (WDH NOT connected). I have found that even with water I will just scrape in if water tanks are full.

TBW, CVM, ATM , GTM , TBW all ok and easily limits.  ATM may go over perhaps 20kg at times. But not concerned about that. 


My conclusion is that last time I weighed everything I stuffed up. Perhaps the water tanks were half full. ? Who knows.

My question is....Yobar, why do you insist the WDH must be connected, YET two x Vic Roads people say the opposite. Remember this is about compliance?.


 Hi Neil...if ATM is over "...maybe 20kgs at times" without WDH attached,you can be sure that the ATM will be further increased with the use of a WDH,which puts more weight onto your van's axle group while not changing towball weight. Cheers



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Well, Yobar, that may be true, or not. BUT you can contest all you like......what do the regulations say.?

Yobar, when he refers to the WDH in place he is weighing the front axle of the tow vehicle, not the van.

This is not about opinion, this is about the regulations,,,compliance. Whether the regulations are good, is a different matter.

It would sound great if I said in front of a judge, and stated my mate says it should be weighed this way but the judge simply reply with,, the regulations say the "mass of the van." If the WDH is attached the weight would NOT be equal to the mass of the van,,  would it?

Yobar, if without the WzDzH attached my van weighs 2000kg then I add 60kg to the mass of the van using the WDH, is it the same?  Is 2060 the same as 2000?



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yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:

Sooo,,, I weighed the van yesterday. As per above. (WDH NOT connected). I have found that even with water I will just scrape in if water tanks are full.

TBW, CVM, ATM , GTM , TBW all ok and easily limits.  ATM may go over perhaps 20kg at times. But not concerned about that. 


My conclusion is that last time I weighed everything I stuffed up. Perhaps the water tanks were half full. ? Who knows.

My question is....Yobar, why do you insist the WDH must be connected, YET two x Vic Roads people say the opposite. Remember this is about compliance?.


 Hi Neil...if ATM is over "...maybe 20kgs at times" without WDH attached,you can be sure that the ATM will be further increased with the use of a WDH,which puts more weight onto your van's axle group while not changing towball weight. Cheers


 Yes, adding the WDH add 60 kg,,,more or less as expected. Ill repeat Vic Roads weigh without the WDH attached.



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oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:

Sooo,,, I weighed the van yesterday. As per above. (WDH NOT connected). I have found that even with water I will just scrape in if water tanks are full.

TBW, CVM, ATM , GTM , TBW all ok and easily limits.  ATM may go over perhaps 20kg at times. But not concerned about that. 


My conclusion is that last time I weighed everything I stuffed up. Perhaps the water tanks were half full. ? Who knows.

My question is....Yobar, why do you insist the WDH must be connected, YET two x Vic Roads people say the opposite. Remember this is about compliance?.


 Hi Neil...if ATM is over "...maybe 20kgs at times" without WDH attached,you can be sure that the ATM will be further increased with the use of a WDH,which puts more weight onto your van's axle group while not changing towball weight. Cheers


 Yes, adding the WDH add 60 kg,,,more or less as expected. Ill repeat Vic Roads weigh without the WDH attached.


 Hi Neil...without being difficult,can I again refer you to the text below from "...an Ex VRs enforcement officer" who states that whenever he weighed car and caravan combinations,that weighing exercise was done WITHOUT any WDH being untensioned.(Released) You can be sure that if ever I as silly enough to use a WDH,and one of those clowns weighed my vehicle with the previously tensioned WDH having being released,and an offence notice was then issued for being overweight,I would rip them to pieces in a court of law.Surely the person who posted this information is not the only enforcement officer at Vic Roads who has a brain? Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 27th of February 2021 08:46:22 PM

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With all due respect.
20210227_210953.jpg20210227_210953.jpg20210227_210953.jpg



-- Edited by oldbloke on Saturday 27th of February 2021 09:17:52 PM



-- Edited by oldbloke on Saturday 27th of February 2021 09:19:12 PM

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With all due respect

 

20210227_210953.jpg



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In fact Peter, as you suggest, that shows that GTM, and ATM, compliance are both compared when the WDH is untensioned, or removed. He also says he checks tow capacity compliance and ball weight at the same time! 

Certainly, that is the only way ATM can be checked, as by definition it is the maximum rating when the van is disconnected from the vehicle.



-- Edited by TheHeaths on Saturday 27th of February 2021 09:36:04 PM

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oldbloke wrote:

With all due respect



-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 28th of February 2021 06:04:43 AM

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Hi Neil....if you simply are wanting to determine the weight of your van,and that it doesn't exceed your ATM rating,that must be done with the van disconnected,so obviously without any WDH. However,when the van is connected to your car,and you are using a WDH,ALL weight measurements must be done with the WDH tensioned,as if you were set to travel. To do otherwise would give false readings,and false hope to those who suspect that they're overloaded.If your disconnected van exceeds its ATM by "...perhaps 20kg at times...",you can rest assured that once that van is connected to your car,and the WDH tensioned,you will be waaay over your rated ATM.This is because weight has been added to your van's axle group,but towball weight has not changed,so the total weight of the van has increased.The first half of the script you have supplied,from the ex VRs enforcement officer, clearly explains that all weighings of front axle,rear axle and van axles are done with the WDH tensioned.It is only when they are trying to determine the actual van weight that the WDH is untensioned.Cheers



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Thankyou Ian and Yobarr.

It was always very clear to me in Peters post that the van was weighed with the hitch not tensioned. The tow vehicle was a different matter.

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yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:

Sooo,,, I weighed the van yesterday. As per above. (WDH NOT connected). I have found that even with water I will just scrape in if water tanks are full.

TBW, CVM, ATM , GTM , TBW all ok and easily limits.  ATM may go over perhaps 20kg at times. But not concerned about that. 


My conclusion is that last time I weighed everything I stuffed up. Perhaps the water tanks were half full. ? Who knows.

My question is....Yobar, why do you insist the WDH must be connected, YET two x Vic Roads people say the opposite. Remember this is about compliance?.


 Hi Neil...if ATM is over "...maybe 20kgs at times" without WDH attached,you can be sure that the ATM will be further increased with the use of a WDH,which puts more weight onto your van's axle group while not changing towball weight. Cheers


 Yes, adding the WDH add 60 kg,,,more or less as expected. Ill repeat Vic Roads weigh without the WDH attached.


 Hi Neil...without being difficult,can I again refer you to the text below from "...an Ex VRs enforcement officer" who states that whenever he weighed car and caravan combinations,that weighing exercise was done WITHOUT any WDH being untensioned.(Released) You can be sure that if ever I as silly enough to use a WDH,and one of those clowns weighed my vehicle with the previously tensioned WDH having being released,and an offence notice was then issued for being overweight,I would rip them to pieces in a court of law.Surely the person who posted this information is not the only enforcement officer at Vic Roads who has a brain? Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 27th of February 2021 08:46:22 PM


 I don't think so. 



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yobarr wrote:

Hi Neil....if you simply are wanting to determine the weight of your van,and that it doesn't exceed your ATM rating,that must be done with the van disconnected,so obviously without any WDH. However,when the van is connected to your car,and you are using a WDH,ALL weight measurements must be done with the WDH tensioned,as if you were set to travel. To do otherwise would give false readings,and false hope to those who suspect that they're overloaded.If your disconnected van exceeds its ATM by "...perhaps 20kg at times...",you can rest assured that once that van is connected to your car,and the WDH tensioned,you will be waaay over your rated ATM.This is because weight has been added to your van's axle group,but towball weight has not changed,so the total weight of the van has increased.The first half of the script you have supplied,from the ex VRs enforcement officer, clearly explains that all weighings of front axle,rear axle and van axles are done with the WDH tensioned.It is only when they are trying to determine the actual van weight that the WDH is untensioned.Cheers


 Again am I the only one who picks you up for your wrong claims. The vans laden mass does not change with or without a WDH. To ascertain if the laden mass exceeds the vans ATM rating can only be done by weighing the van alone.

Alan



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Brenda and Alan wrote:
yobarr wrote:

Hi Neil....if you simply are wanting to determine the weight of your van,and that it doesn't exceed your ATM rating,that must be done with the van disconnected,so obviously without any WDH. However,when the van is connected to your car,and you are using a WDH,ALL weight measurements must be done with the WDH tensioned,as if you were set to travel. To do otherwise would give false readings,and false hope to those who suspect that they're overloaded.If your disconnected van exceeds its ATM by "...perhaps 20kg at times...",you can rest assured that once that van is connected to your car,and the WDH tensioned,you will be waaay over your rated ATM.This is because weight has been added to your van's axle group,but towball weight has not changed,so the total weight of the van has increased.The first half of the script you have supplied,from the ex VRs enforcement officer, clearly explains that all weighings of front axle,rear axle and van axles are done with the WDH tensioned.It is only when they are trying to determine the actual van weight that the WDH is untensioned.Cheers


 Again am I the only one who picks you up for your wrong claims. The vans laden mass does not change with or without a WDH. To ascertain if the laden mass exceeds the vans ATM rating can only be done by weighing the van alone.

Alan


 Alan,I am beginning to again think that you are being mischievous? Are you the only member of the forum who does not understand that a WDH transfers weight to the van's axle group,so it increases the trailer's GTM,towball weight does NOT change,so therefore the total weight of the van (GVM if you like?) has increased? I have spent much time writing detailed explanations of weights,but it seems you still are well lost in the WDH wilderness? There is little more that I can do.Cheers



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Once I weighed the van GTM. I then connected the hitch. The scale indicated a 60kg increase.

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The van's GTM will increase with the application of a WDH, however the van's ATM is only applicable when the van is unhooked.
Consequently WDH does not impact ATM.
The GCM or measured combined weight does not change with WDH nor does ball weight.
What does change is the weight applied to the van's axles (GTM) and and the tugs front and rear axles.

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oldbloke wrote:

Once I weighed the van GTM. I then connected the hitch. The scale indicated a 60kg increase.


 Thankyou Neil...You,like most members of the forum,understand the workings of a WDH.Unfortunately,no matter how many explanations are given, or how many videos are available,there is one member who is still well lost in the WDH wilderness,and refuses to be rescued! C'est la vie! Cheers



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