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Post Info TOPIC: Towing Limitations Discussed


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montie wrote:

The van's GTM will increase with the application of a WDH, however the van's ATM is only applicable when the van is unhooked.
Consequently WDH does not impact ATM.
The GCM or measured combined weight does not change with WDH nor does ball weight.
What does change is the weight applied to the van's axles (GTM) and and the tugs front and rear axles.


 Thanks Montie...we need to clarify here that ATM is a rating,and never will change.What does change with the use of a WDH is the total  weight of the van. Towball weight is constant,but GTM increases,so the total weight of the van  (mass) is increased.So simple.As you say,GCM does not increase (obviously),and neither does the towball weight.Front axle will gain weight,van's axle group will gain weight,rear axle of car will lose weight,but the towball weight WILL NOT CHANGE....EVER.So,if GTM is increased and towball weight is constant,obviously the weight of he van has increased.You and I, among many,understand the simple physics involved here,but at least one forum member is well lost. I have done what I can to help this member understand the effects of a WDHk,but he seems  to be descending further and further into the darkness of the WDH wilderness. What may be contributing to the confusion is that this member seems to not understand that a WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT.Cheers



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Yobarr I have shown you that the tow bar loading does indeed change when a WDH it tensioned. If you bothered to check the arithmetic you would see this is so, however you claim you don't need to because you know better. The increase in weight on vans wheels is equal to the weight removed from tugs wheels. Therefore there is no change in weight of the van. Yet you constantly claim that it does.The system of van and tug is a closed system. ( ie no weight is added or taken from from the system) Hence an increase in van axle weight can only occur with a corresponding reduction in tug axle weight. As the connection is via a tow bar the tow bar weight must be reduced by this same amount.
Alan 


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Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr I have shown you that the tow bar loading does indeed change when a WDH it tensioned. If you bothered to check the arithmetic you would see this is so, however you claim you don't need to because you know better. The increase in weight on vans wheels is equal to the weight removed from tugs wheels. Therefore there is no change in weight of the van. Yet you constantly claim that it does.The system of van and tug is a closed system. ( ie no weight is added or taken from from the system) Hence an increase in van axle weight can only occur with a corresponding reduction in tug axle weight. As the connection is via a tow bar the tow bar weight must be reduced by this same amount.
Alan 

 So the van finishes up with zero ball weight!smilesmilesmile

Alan I think you better recalculate your maths otherwise we will have vans strewn over every highway in the country.!!smilesmile

WDH distributes the weight from the tug rear axle to it's front axle and van axles.....the ball weight does not change.



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No Montie I have stated clearly that the tow bar weight is reduced by the same amount as the increase in van axle weight. Your last statement is getting closer to the case. The WDH distributes some of the weight to the vans axles therefore the tow bar weight must be reduced, you can't have it both ways.

Alan



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Brenda and Alan wrote:

No Montie I have stated clearly that the tow bar weight is reduced by the same amount as the increase in van axle weight. Your last statement is getting closer to the case. The WDH distributes some of the weight to the vans axles therefore the tow bar weight must be reduced, you can't have it both ways.

Alan


 Incorrect



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Montie show me the maths you used to say I am incorrect or is it just a belief that tow bar weight doesn't change regardless of the maths that show otherwise.

Alan



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Brenda and Alan wrote:

Montie show me the maths you used to say I am incorrect or is it just a belief that tow bar weight doesn't change regardless of the maths that show otherwise.

Alan


 Alan,there is no maths involved.Your posted chart showed towball weight was listed as zero,so it is an absolute joke...towball weight does NOT change when a WDH is tensioned.Period,Previously I have referred you to videos that explain how a WDH works,but it seems that you didn't watch them,or you didn't understand? Tyere is little more that I can do,as I have spent hours posting detailed explanations of the workings of a WDH,but each day you seem to prigress further into the WDH wilderness.Once again Alan,a WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT...EVER. Cheers



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Brenda and Alan wrote:

Montie show me the maths you used to say I am incorrect or is it just a belief that tow bar weight doesn't change regardless of the maths that show otherwise.

Alan


 Allan,

A Weight Distribution Hitch or load leveller distributes weight from the tug's rear axle to the front axle and to the van's wheels. It does not distribute the ball weight.

The approximate ratio of distribution is 75/25.

As an example if you impose say 350kg on the towbar that will immediately increase rear axle weight. By distributing the axle weight does not make the 350kg disappear from the drawbar. The measured ball weight will still be 350kg you just distribute it.

 

 



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Weight Distribution Systems

 

Did you know?

Towing without a Hayman Reese Weight Distribution System can cause unnerving trailer sway, reduced steering and braking responsiveness, less traction and misaligned headlamps. Over time you may also notice a reduction in fuel economy and increased tyre wear. Hayman Reese Weight Distribution Systems improve safety, handling, control and comfort when towing.

When using a Weight Distribution System, the ball weight remains the same, however, the load is evenly distributed across all of the axles. This restores the tow vehicle to its correct operating balance, carrying the caravan rather than dragging the load.

Directly from the Hayman Reece website.

 



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montie wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:

Montie show me the maths you used to say I am incorrect or is it just a belief that tow bar weight doesn't change regardless of the maths that show otherwise.

Alan


 Allan,

A Weight Distribution Hitch or load leveller distributes weight from the tug's rear axle to the front axle and to the van's wheels. It does not distribute the ball weight.

The approximate ratio of distribution is 75/25.

As an example if you impose say 350kg on the towbar that will immediately increase rear axle weight. By distributing the axle weight does not make the 350kg disappear from the drawbar. The measured ball weight will still be 350kg you just distribute it.

 

 


 Montie that is precisely what a WDH does. But that part of the original load distributed to the van axles MUST by simple arithmetic reduce the tow bar weight.

Yobarr if you think no maths is involved then you will never see that you off the ball on this topic. Check the figures and they will tell you.

Alan



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Brenda and Alan wrote:
montie wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:

Montie show me the maths you used to say I am incorrect or is it just a belief that tow bar weight doesn't change regardless of the maths that show otherwise.

Alan


 Allan,

A Weight Distribution Hitch or load leveller distributes weight from the tug's rear axle to the front axle and to the van's wheels. It does not distribute the ball weight.

The approximate ratio of distribution is 75/25.

As an example if you impose say 350kg on the towbar that will immediately increase rear axle weight. By distributing the axle weight does not make the 350kg disappear from the drawbar. The measured ball weight will still be 350kg you just distribute it.

 

 


 Montie that is precisely what a WDH does. But that part of the original load distributed to the van axles MUST by simple arithmetic reduce the tow bar weight.

Yobarr if you think no maths is involved then you will never see that you off the ball on this topic. Check the figures and they will tell you.

Alan


 The manufacturer Hayman Reece do not agree with you and neither do I.

WDH does not change the ball weight...not much more can be said.



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Think about it another way, what happens with a WDH is that by virtue of a spring under the pivot point (tow ball) some weight is removed from the rear axle of the tow vehicle and transferred in part to (1) the front axle of the tow vehicle and (2) the caravan axles
Nothing changes except these two weight transfers

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Brenda and Alan wrote:
montie wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:

Montie show me the maths you used to say I am incorrect or is it just a belief that tow bar weight doesn't change regardless of the maths that show otherwise.

Alan


 Allan,

A Weight Distribution Hitch or load leveller distributes weight from the tug's rear axle to the front axle and to the van's wheels. It does not distribute the ball weight.

The approximate ratio of distribution is 75/25.

As an example if you impose say 350kg on the towbar that will immediately increase rear axle weight. By distributing the axle weight does not make the 350kg disappear from the drawbar. The measured ball weight will still be 350kg you just distribute it.


 Montie that is precisely what a WDH does. But that part of the original load distributed to the van axles MUST by simple arithmetic reduce the tow bar weight.

Yobarr if you think no maths is involved then you will never see that you off the ball on this topic. Check the figures and they will tell you.Alan


 Alan,it seems that you,as often happens,did not even READ Montie's post above,where he supplied information Directly from the Hayman Reese website. We have done all we can to correct your total misunderstanding of the workings of a WDH,written many explanations, given figures,and supplied information on how to access video information to help you.All to no avail,it seems,as still you post illogical rubbish,defying the laws of physics.Perhaps you should contact Hayman Reese directly and tell them the error of their ways.Who knows,they may even invite you to help them correct  these mistakes? For your information,I have reposted the information supplied by Montie,from the Hayman Reese Website,and in an effort to help you,I have highlighted what is particularly relevant.Sincerely,I hope this helps you,as you are well lost in the WDH wilderness.Best wishes.Cheers

 

457A62E8-0AFF-4F2D-8D7D-4CF573EBC327.jpeg



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River Rat wrote:

Think about it another way, what happens with a WDH is that by virtue of a spring under the pivot point (tow ball) some weight is removed from the rear axle of the tow vehicle and transferred in part to (1) the front axle of the tow vehicle and (2) the caravan axles
Nothing changes except these two weight transfers


 Great to see that you have a thorough understanding of the mechanics involved.Cheers



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Brenda and Alan wrote:
montie wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:

Montie show me the maths you used to say I am incorrect or is it just a belief that tow bar weight doesn't change regardless of the maths that show otherwise.

Alan


 Allan,

A Weight Distribution Hitch or load leveller distributes weight from the tug's rear axle to the front axle and to the van's wheels. It does not distribute the ball weight.

The approximate ratio of distribution is 75/25.

As an example if you impose say 350kg on the towbar that will immediately increase rear axle weight. By distributing the axle weight does not make the 350kg disappear from the drawbar. The measured ball weight will still be 350kg you just distribute it.

 

 


 Montie that is precisely what a WDH does. But that part of the original load distributed to the van axles MUST by simple arithmetic reduce the tow bar weight.

Yobarr if you think no maths is involved then you will never see that you off the ball on this topic. Check the figures and they will tell you.

Alan


Hi Alan,

I have been avoiding wading into this argument as some of the respondents are just down right ignorant of any fact except, of course, for their own maligned views. I admire your perseverance.

I provide a link to a video below which has been prepared by a very reputable North American company which deals in trailer and towing components. These people have an extensive design and manufacturing business.

The video covers the use of air bags and their inherent pitfalls and the use of a WDH.

The video clearly explains what the effects are on axle weights when a WDH is connected.

For those who think that they know it all, I suggest that YOU SCROLL THROUGH TO THE TWELVE MINUTE MARK of the video where it is clearly explained that the extra weight that is applied to the trailer axles by the use of a WDH comes of the hitch or towball.

Those who you argue with you Alan are not engineers and have absolutely no qualifications in this field and no matter what is said in advertising material, no axle group can increase in weight without that same amount coming off of another area provided the initial load remains constant. A WDH is a torsion bar which enables the TRANSFER of weight to the appropriate areas. It physically can not cause any axle group to increase weight without taking it from another area.

The GCM of any combination remains the same wether a WDH is installed or not. I would have though a clever 12 year old coild realise this exercise in simple physics.

Anyway here is the video for all to watch and remember to note what is explained from the 12 minute mark.

https://youtu.be/XBZu39pQ8Gg

Regards

Rob



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bentaxlebabe wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
montie wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:

Montie show me the maths you used to say I am incorrect or is it just a belief that tow bar weight doesn't change regardless of the maths that show otherwise.Alan


 Allan,A Weight Distribution Hitch or load leveller distributes weight from the tug's rear axle to the front axle and to the van's wheels. It does not distribute the ball weight.

The approximate ratio of distribution is 75/25.

As an example if you impose say 350kg on the towbar that will immediately increase rear axle weight. By distributing the axle weight does not make the 350kg disappear from the drawbar. The measured ball weight will still be 350kg you just distribute it. 


 Montie that is precisely what a WDH does. But that part of the original load distributed to the van axles MUST by simple arithmetic reduce the tow bar weight.

Yobarr if you think no maths is involved then you will never see that you off the ball on this topic. Check the figures and they will tell you.Alan


Hi Alan,

I have been avoiding wading into this argument as some of the respondents are just down right ignorant of any fact except, of course, for their own maligned views. I admire your perseverance.

I provide a link to a video below which has been prepared by a very reputable North American company which deals in trailer and towing components. These people have an extensive design and manufacturing business.

The video covers the use of air bags and their inherent pitfalls and the use of a WDH.

The video clearly explains what the effects are on axle weights when a WDH is connected.

For those who think that they know it all, I suggest that YOU SCROLL THROUGH TO THE TWELVE MINUTE MARK of the video where it is clearly explained that the extra weight that is applied to the trailer axles by the use of a WDH comes of the hitch or towball.

Those who you argue with you Alan are not engineers and have absolutely no qualifications in this field and no matter what is said in advertising material, no axle group can increase in weight without that same amount coming off of another area provided the initial load remains constant. A WDH is a torsion bar which enables the TRANSFER of weight to the appropriate areas. It physically can not cause any axle group to increase weight without taking it from another area.

The GCM of any combination remains the same wether a WDH is installed or not. I would have though a clever 12 year old coild realise this exercise in simple physics.

Anyway here is the video for all to watch and remember to note what is explained from the 12 minute mark.

https://youtu.be/XBZu39pQ8Gg

RegardsRob


 Rob,thankyou for posting this video,but unfortunately you have totally misunderstood,or misinterpreted,what was said in the video.This video shows exactly what Montie and I have been trying to help Alan understand! Spare me! At the 12.21 minute point of the video you so kindly posted (I have studied it before,many times) the comment is made that "...the WDH is is better at relieving some of the tongue weight burden from the tow vehicle's  REAR AXLE and placing it on the trailer's axle...". Between the 10.20 and 10.40 minute marks,it clearly is explained that weight is removed from the car's REAR AXLE and some of that weight is transferred to the front axle of the car,while some goes onto the trailer's (van's) axles.Please note that chap in the video clearly says that the tongue weight burden is removed from the tow vehicle's REAR AXLE . You possibly had good intentions (?) when you posted that video,but,unfortunately for both you and Alan,it shows exactly what Montie and I have been trying to help Alan understand.Cheers

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 2nd of March 2021 10:59:09 AM

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Hayman Reece have been manufacturing towbar equipment in Australia for 60 years and I have no reason to doubt their advice.

A weight distribution system will not reduce or eliminate weight it can only distribute it from the tugs rear axle.

You can lead a horse to water.........

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Unfortunately, this will probably go down the path of so many other topics on here regarding weight and caravans.

Now, lets have a vehicle sitting on a flat surface and then connect a caravan with a tow ball weight to that vehicle and we all agree that the weight from the drawbar, towball, tongue, or whatever you want to call it is transferred to the rear axle at a proportionate weight with regard to tow ball overhang. At that very same moment we create the GCM or Gross Combination Mass which we all should agree that this weight is the total or combined weight of the car, the caravan and the load.


This extra weight on the rear axle is a direct result of the weight of the draw bar of the caravan.
At that very moment of connection the front axle of the tow vehicle lifts and adopts a higher a attitude than before the van was connected.

This higher attitude is a result of loss of weight from the front axle being counteracted by the extra weight of the drawbar being applied to the rear axle and increasing the weight of that rear axle. These changes in the various axle weights are a direct result of connecting the caravan. I think that so far we all agree.....

Now lets connect the WDH.
By doing so its action removes some weight from the rear axle and transfers it to the front.
The extra weight on the rear axle was a direct result on the weight of the drawbar of the caravan applying that weight to the tow bar of the car.
At the same time we observe that when the WDH is connected the weight of the caravan axle group also increases. I think we all agree on this......

Now, with reference to the utube movie where this is proven to happen on a weight scales, The GCM does not increase.
It cant because there has been nothing added or taken away.

Lets go back to the beginning of my this post.
We know and agree that the weight of the car was increased when we connected the van and the weight of the drawbar was the direct result.
We then connected a WDH which made the front axle of the car heavier and the rear axle of the car lighter but at the same time it also increased the weigh of the axle group on the caravan. I think we all still agree...or at least I hope so.

So the increases in the weight on the car and caravan axle groups came from where. We are still on the same weigh scales.....
Remember the physics that we have had instilled in us over the last five pages, well, the only place that will suffer a loss of weight when other axle groups are increased is from the draw bar.

Now is there anyone that does not agree with this and if there is can you tell us all where this extra weight came from, bearing in mind that the GCM of the car and caravan has not changed

If, as it has been suggested that the ball weight remains the same, then, please tell us all the new magical figure of an increased GCM or please inform us how the GCM remains the same when the caravan axle is heavier and the draw bar or tow ball weight is still the same as it was before connecting.

Btw at the approx 12 minute mark the video clearly states that the weight is transferred from the tow hitch to the trailer axle group.

I know you will almost surely reply Yobarr so could you please try to use correct punctuation, laying out with paragraphs and the use of the space bar would also be welcome.

Regards

Rob





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bentaxlebabe wrote:

Unfortunately, this will probably go down the path of so many other topics on here regarding weight and caravans.

Now, lets have a vehicle sitting on a flat surface and then connect a caravan with a tow ball weight to that vehicle and we all agree that the weight from the drawbar, towball, tongue, or whatever you want to call it is transferred to the rear axle at a proportionate weight with regard to tow ball overhang. At that very same moment we create the GCM or Gross Combination Mass which we all should agree that this weight is the total or combined weight of the car, the caravan and the load.

The transferred weight also is directly related to wheelbase,which is where the LC200 fails miserably.

This extra weight on the rear axle is a direct result of the weight of the draw bar of the caravan.
At that very moment of connection the front axle of the tow vehicle lifts and adopts a higher a attitude than before the van was connected.

This higher attitude is a result of loss of weight from the front axle being counteracted by the extra weight of the drawbar being applied to the rear axle and increasing the weight of that rear axle. These changes in the various axle weights are a direct result of connecting the caravan. I think that so far we all agree.....

Now lets connect the WDH.
By doing so its action removes some weight from the rear axle and transfers it to the front.
The extra weight on the rear axle was a direct result on the weight of the drawbar of the caravan applying that weight to the tow bar of the car.
At the same time we observe that when the WDH is connected the weight of the caravan axle group also increases.I think we all agree on this......

Funny that,as you and many others ripped into me,waaay back,when I told that,because of the transferred weight,the vans total mass increased.                             Seems you have at least learned something there!

Now, with reference to the utube movie where this is proven to happen on a weight scales, The GCM does not increase.
It cant because there has been nothing added or taken away.

Nobody ever has said that the GCM has increased...it seems that you are well confused.


Lets go back to the beginning of my this post.
We know and agree that the weight of the car was increased when we connected the van and the weight of the drawbar was the direct result.
We then connected a WDH which made the front axle of the car heavier and the rear axle of the car lighter but at the same time it also increased the weigh of the axle group on the caravan. I think we all still agree...or at least I hope so.

Slowly you are learning!

So the increases in the weight on the car and caravan axle groups came from where. We are still on the same weigh scales.....
Remember the physics that we have had instilled in us over the last five pages, well, the only place that will suffer a loss of weight when other axle groups are increased is from the draw bar.

For heavens sake Rob...the total weight on the axles will NEVER change with the use of a WDH.Weight is DISTRIBUTED differently,with the front axle of the car,and the vans axle group both gaining weight.The total weight gained by those axles is EXACTLY the weight removed from the cars rear axle.The towball weight has absolutely NOTHING to do with that weight distribution.Absolutely NOTHING.


Now is there anyone that does not agree with this and if there is can you tell us all where this extra weight came from, bearing in mind that the GCM of the car and caravan has not changed

There IS no extra weight.The GCM does not change. Spare me!


If, as it has been suggested that the ball weight remains the same, then, please tell us all the new magical figure of an increased GCM or please inform us how the GCM remains the same when the caravan axle is heavier and the draw bar or tow ball weight is still the same as it was before connecting.

This is ridiculous...as far as I am aware,nobody ever has claimed that GCM has increased.The TOTAL weight on the axles of the vehicles has not changed,but the TOTAL weight on the axles of the car has been reduced,while the van axles have gained weight.The increase in the weight of the van is exactly the same as the decrease in the weight of the car.This is why a WDH will easily put a laden van over its legal ATM Rating.Not only does the car weigh less,the weight has been DISTRIBUTED differently,with the front axle gaining weight and the rear axle losing weight.Magic!

 


Btw at the approx 12 minute mark the video clearly states that the weight is transferred from the tow hitch to the trailer axle group.

Rubbish.Please at least quote correctly.What it says is that some of "the tongue weigh burden is removed from the tow vehicles REAR AXLE and..."                 NOTE..."REMOVED from the tow vehicles REAR AXLE".

I know you will almost surely reply Yobarr so could you please try to use correct punctuation, laying out with paragraphs and the use of the space bar would also be welcome.

Perhaps you could point out to me where my punctuation is incorrect,and doesnt meet acceptable standards?I also would like to learn in what way my paragraphs are not "laid out",whatever that means. And I have no clue what a "space bar" is? BUT,unlike some,always I am happy to learn.

Regards

Rob


 In an effort to help you understand the indesputable,I will again post this article,which is taken directly from the Hayman Reese website. You might like to accompany Alan to the HR headquarters in Victoria,where you could jointly point out to them where theyre mistaken? John Cadogan also has a couple of online videos which explain EXACTLY how a WDH works.                                 A WDH DOES NOT,CAN NOT,AND WILL NOT...EVER...change towball weight.Period.Cheers.

 

792BA85C-CC84-4A03-BDA6-C09723EA4EC9.png



 



-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 3rd of March 2021 03:47:45 AM

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Hello do we not understand that towball weight become irrevelent at the very moment you connect the tug and van together, it is part of the whole GVM/GCM.

You cannot actually measure the towball weight when its is connected, and where that moves when a WDH is engaged is another thing that is a variable depending on the amount of FALR (Front Axle Load Return). There will be signifiant difference between 50% and 100% FALR.

Remember most of these video presentations are working on returning the height of the front of the vehicle to it pre hook up height or there abouts, which is about 100% FALR, a 50% FALR would return little or almost nothing to the caravan axle group.

 

 



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Gundog wrote:

Hello do we not understand that towball weight become irrevelent at the very moment you connect the tug and van together, it is part of the whole GVM/GCM.

You cannot actually measure the towball weight when its is connected, and where that moves when a WDH is engaged is another thing that is a variable depending on the amount of FALR (Front Axle Load Return). There will be signifiant difference between 50% and 100% FALR.

Remember most of these video presentations are working on returning the height of the front of the vehicle to it pre hook up height or there abouts, which is about 100% FALR, a 50% FALR would return little or almost nothing to the caravan axle group.


 Graham,that is incorrect.If a WDH is tensioned to give 100% FALR,the vans axle group would also gain weight.Not negotiable.However,because the front axle has now  regained 100% of what it lost,and the vans axle group has also gained weight,the total weight removed from the rear axle of the car would be more than the weight it gained when the van was connected. Oversteer loons! Cheers

P.S If some of my punctuation is not up to scratch tiday,it may be that my new iPad Pro has different controls from the ancient iPad I usually work with,and I am yet to master it.



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yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:

Hello do we not understand that towball weight become irrevelent at the very moment you connect the tug and van together, it is part of the whole GVM/GCM.

You cannot actually measure the towball weight when its is connected, and where that moves when a WDH is engaged is another thing that is a variable depending on the amount of FALR (Front Axle Load Return). There will be signifiant difference between 50% and 100% FALR.

Remember most of these video presentations are working on returning the height of the front of the vehicle to it pre hook up height or there abouts, which is about 100% FALR, a 50% FALR would return little or almost nothing to the caravan axle group.


 Graham,that is incorrect.If a WDH is tensioned to give 100% FALR,the vans axle group would also gain weight.Not negotiable.However,because the front axle has now  regained 100% of what it lost,and the vans axle group has also gained weight,the total weight removed from the rear axle of the car would be more than the weight it gained when the van was connected. Oversteer loons! Cheers

P.S If some of my punctuation is not up to scratch tiday,it may be that my new iPad Pro has different controls from the ancient iPad I usually work with,and I am yet to master it.


 Reread my post and refer to the red text



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Let me tackle this a different way to explain my reasoning.

The only connection between van and tug is the square tube that inserts into the receiver and the pin through it.

When a van is coupled the only force acting on this connection is a vertical force due to original tow ball weight. There is no horizontal component.

When a WDH is tensioned this changes and there are now two components to the force acting on this connection.

Tensioning a WDH adds a horizontal force and a vertical force to this connection. The vertical force it adds opposes the original tow ball weight and hence reduces it

The horizontal component is compression acting to push the van and tug apart and is responsible for the change in front axle axle and van axle weights at the expense rear axle weight

The vertical component is what you see on the scales and the scales indicate that the WDH reduces this component compared to what we had before it was fitted.

I can't see why I should be concerned if Hayman Reece or anyone else state otherwise as long as it doesn't result in misinformation regarding van laden weight increasing.

 



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Brenda and Alan wrote:

Let me tackle this a different way to explain my reasoning.

The only connection between van and tug is the square tube that inserts into the receiver and the pin through it.

When a van is coupled the only force acting on this connection is a vertical force due to original tow ball weight. There is no horizontal component.

When a WDH is tensioned this changes and there are now two components to the force acting on this connection.

Tensioning a WDH adds a horizontal force and a vertical force to this connection. The vertical force it adds opposes the original tow ball weight and hence reduces it

The horizontal component is compression acting to push the van and tug apart and is responsible for the change in front axle axle and van axle weights at the expense rear axle weight

The vertical component is what you see on the scales and the scales indicate that the WDH reduces this component compared to what we had before it was fitted.

I can't see why I should be concerned if Hayman Reece or anyone else state otherwise as long as it doesn't result in misinformation regarding van laden weight increasing.

 


 Obviously, those Hayman Reece engineers don't know what they are talking about smile

The bottom line here is this discussion is about nothing anyway because ball weight like ATM is irrelevant when the van is hooked. You cannot measure ball weight or van weight when the van is coupled to the tug. 

If a WDH could make weight disappear I reckon Jenny Craig might be interested!smile

Do I detect a hint of trolling here?smile



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Brenda and Alan wrote:

Let me tackle this a different way to explain my reasoning.

The only connection between van and tug is the square tube that inserts into the receiver and the pin through it.

When a van is coupled the only force acting on this connection is a vertical force due to original tow ball weight. There is no horizontal component.

When a WDH is tensioned this changes and there are now two components to the force acting on this connection.

Tensioning a WDH adds a horizontal force and a vertical force to this connection. The vertical force it adds opposes the original tow ball weight and hence reduces it

The horizontal component is compression acting to push the van and tug apart and is responsible for the change in front axle axle and van axle weights at the expense rear axle weight

The vertical component is what you see on the scales and the scales indicate that the WDH reduces this component compared to what we had before it was fitted.

I can't see why I should be concerned if Hayman Reece or anyone else state otherwise as long as it doesn't result in misinformation regarding van laden weight increasing. 


 Alan,you are so far lost in the WDH wilderness that I am concerned that you`ll never recover.Each time you post,you seem to come up with different "theories".None is relevant,and none makes any sense.We have done all we can possibly do to help you...we have given results of actual weighing activities,we have supplied information taken directly from the Hayman Reese website,we have explained the physics involved,and we have supplied links to sites that succintly explain the function of a WDH,but still you serm well and truly lost.Now you waffle on about an imaginary horizontal force created by a WDH.Any increase in axle weights that is created by horizontal forces has NOTHING to do with a WDH.Nothing.Such forces are present, regardless, but are impossible to measure. You are so well lost in the WDH wilderness that I am concerned for your well being.All I can now suggest is that you purchase a vehicle that does not need a WDH to help it do things for which it never was designed.WDHs are a band-aid solution to a plaster-cast problem.Cheers

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 3rd of March 2021 03:24:09 AM

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montie wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:

Let me tackle this a different way to explain my reasoning.


 Obviously, those Hayman Reece engineers don't know what they are talking about smile

The bottom line here is this discussion is about nothing anyway because ball weight like ATM is irrelevant when the van is hooked. You cannot measure ball weight or van weight when the van is coupled to the tug. 

If a WDH could make weight disappear I reckon Jenny Craig might be interested!smile

Do I detect a hint of trolling here?smile


        "Do I detect a hint of trolling here?" Like you Montie,I have concerns that Alan is simply being mischievous,to fill in his day,but another member,who also seems to have little understanding of the physics involved,has jumped onto the Band Wagon.The garbage they contribute is of little to concern to me,but I do despair that "newbies",or others with very little,or no, understanding of weights will be negatively influenced by said garbage.In the face of all adversity,we can but battle on! "Speak your truth quietly and clearly,and listen to others,even the dull and the ignorant.They too have their story".Cheers

P.S The quotation from Desiderata may not be 100% correct,but Im doing it from memory,from 50 years ago!

 



-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 3rd of March 2021 03:52:56 AM

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Wow.
Not much of a forum for accurate information when anyone who seems to disagree with one person are called a troll.
Hay mate, you need to stop calling others trolls and answer the questions put forward.
Or just pull ya head in..



-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Tuesday 2nd of March 2021 09:21:02 PM

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yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:

The van's GTM will increase with the application of a WDH, however the van's ATM is only applicable when the van is unhooked.
Consequently WDH does not impact ATM.
The GCM or measured combined weight does not change with WDH nor does ball weight.
What does change is the weight applied to the van's axles (GTM) and and the tugs front and rear axles.


 Thanks Montie...we need to clarify here that ATM is a rating,and never will change.What does change with the use of a WDH is the total  weight of the van. Towball weight is constant,but GTM increases,so the total weight of the van  (mass) is increased.So simple.As you say,GCM does not increase (obviously),and neither does the towball weight.Front axle will gain weight,van's axle group will gain weight,rear axle of car will lose weight,but the towball weight WILL NOT CHANGE....EVER.So,if GTM is increased and towball weight is constant,obviously the weight of he van has increased.You and I, among many,understand the simple physics involved here,but at least one forum member is well lost. I have done what I can to help this member understand the effects of a WDHk,but he seems  to be descending further and further into the darkness of the WDH wilderness. What may be contributing to the confusion is that this member seems to not understand that a WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT.Cheers


 Yobarr,

You and another clearly state that the GTM or caravan axle group weight increases with the application of a WDH.

You make your point in capital letters that the towball weight will not change so explain where this extra weight comes from to increase the GTM. This weight HAS to come off the towball. The only way that weight can come off the rear axle or be added to the van axles is by lifting the drawbar. 

Now a lesson in posting.

The space bar is the big bar in the lower area of the keyboard. You use it between every word and the use of a comma or other punctuation does not EVER negate its use.

Your method of not breaking your post into paragraphs is annoying but you know that already.

Might I suggest your reason for lack of paragraphs and spaced sentences virtually prevents anyone else from answering or commenting on each point exactly as you have done to my post above. You are really too clever for your own or anyone elses good, Yobarr.

So, way you go mate, jump back up on your box, take a big breath to pump up your chest, and inflict another half page of drivel on us all.

Regards

Rob



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bentaxlebabe wrote:
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:

The van's GTM will increase with the application of a WDH, however the van's ATM is only applicable when the van is unhooked.
Consequently WDH does not impact ATM.
The GCM or measured combined weight does not change with WDH nor does ball weight.
What does change is the weight applied to the van's axles (GTM) and and the tugs front and rear axles.


 Thanks Montie...we need to clarify here that ATM is a rating,and never will change.What does change with the use of a WDH is the total  weight of the van. Towball weight is constant,but GTM increases,so the total weight of the van  (mass) is increased.So simple.As you say,GCM does not increase (obviously),and neither does the towball weight.Front axle will gain weight,van's axle group will gain weight,rear axle of car will lose weight,but the towball weight WILL NOT CHANGE....EVER.So,if GTM is increased and towball weight is constant,obviously the weight of he van has increased.You and I, among many,understand the simple physics involved here,but at least one forum member is well lost. I have done what I can to help this member understand the effects of a WDHk,but he seems  to be descending further and further into the darkness of the WDH wilderness. What may be contributing to the confusion is that this member seems to not understand that a WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT.Cheers


 Yobarr,

You and another clearly state that the GTM or caravan axle group weight increases with the application of a WDH.

You make your point in capital letters that the towball weight will not change so explain where this extra weight comes from to increase the GTM. This weight HAS to come off the towball. The only way that weight can come off the rear axle or be added to the van axles is by lifting the drawbar. 

Now a lesson in posting.

The space bar is the big bar in the lower area of the keyboard. You use it between every word and the use of a comma or other punctuation does not EVER negate its use.

Your method of not breaking your post into paragraphs is annoying but you know that already.

Might I suggest your reason for lack of paragraphs and spaced sentences virtually prevents anyone else from answering or commenting on each point exactly as you have done to my post above. You are really too clever for your own or anyone elses good, Yobarr.

So, way you go mate, jump back up on your box, take a big breath to pump up your chest, and inflict another half page of drivel on us all.

Regards

Rob


 Rob,you have changed tack...again.Yesterday you accused us of stating that GCM is increased when a WDH is used,and I asked you to show where anybody had ever suggested such.It seems that you were unable to find any such statement.Now you seem to have realised that,as usual,you were wrong,so you now have  accused us of stating that the GTM of a van increases with the use of a WDH...which it does. Not only does the GTM of tge van increase,but so too does the total weight of the van.This because a WDH does NOT change towball weight.Again,in another effort to help you,I will explain how a WDH works.It removes weight from the REAR AXLE of the car,and distributes that weight to the front axle of the car,and to the van's axle group.Montie's suggestion is that 75% of the weight removed from the REAR AXLE of the car goes back onto the car's front,with the other 25% being DISTRIBUTED to the van's axle group. My weighings gave a slightly different result,but that is because my car has a long whelbase and short TBO.When I used a WDH to remove 100kg from my car's REAR AXLE,there was 66kg added to the car's front axle weight,and 34kg was added to my van's axle group. Results are that 1) Total weight of car was reduced by 34kg.b) Total weight of van was increased by 34kg.c) Weight on front axle of car was increased by 66kg d) Weight on REAR AXLE of car was reduced by 100kg e) Weight on van's axle group was increased by 34kg. It is thus clear that GCM has not changed,but all weight removed from the REAR AXLE of the car has been DISTRIBUTED to different axles.Funny that.... who would ever have thought that a Weight Distribution Hitch would DISTRIBUTE weight? Magic,isn't it? Cheers.



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yobarr wrote:
bentaxlebabe wrote:
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:

The van's GTM will increase with the application of a WDH, however the van's ATM is only applicable when the van is unhooked.
Consequently WDH does not impact ATM.
The GCM or measured combined weight does not change with WDH nor does ball weight.
What does change is the weight applied to the van's axles (GTM) and and the tugs front and rear axles.


 Thanks Montie...we need to clarify here that ATM is a rating,and never will change.What does change with the use of a WDH is the total  weight of the van. Towball weight is constant,but GTM increases,so the total weight of the van  (mass) is increased.So simple.As you say,GCM does not increase (obviously),and neither does the towball weight.Front axle will gain weight,van's axle group will gain weight,rear axle of car will lose weight,but the towball weight WILL NOT CHANGE....EVER.So,if GTM is increased and towball weight is constant,obviously the weight of he van has increased.You and I, among many,understand the simple physics involved here,but at least one forum member is well lost. I have done what I can to help this member understand the effects of a WDHk,but he seems  to be descending further and further into the darkness of the WDH wilderness. What may be contributing to the confusion is that this member seems to not understand that a WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT.Cheers


 Yobarr,

You and another clearly state that the GTM or caravan axle group weight increases with the application of a WDH.

You make your point in capital letters that the towball weight will not change so explain where this extra weight comes from to increase the GTM. This weight HAS to come off the towball. 

Now a lesson in posting.

The space bar is the big bar in the lower area of the keyboard. You use it between every word and the use of a comma or other punctuation does not EVER negate its use.

Your method of not breaking your post into paragraphs is annoying but you know that already.

Might I suggest your reason for lack of paragraphs and spaced sentences virtually prevents anyone else from answering or commenting on each point exactly as you have done to my post above. You are really too clever for your own or anyone elses good, Yobarr.

So, way you go mate, jump back up on your box, take a big breath to pump up your chest, and inflict another half page of drivel on us all.

Regards

Rob


 Rob,you have changed tack...again.Yesterday you accused us of stating that GCM is increased when a WDH is used,and I asked you to show where anybody had ever suggested such.It seems that you were unable to find any such statement.Now you seem to have realised that,as usual,you were wrong,so you now have  accused us of stating that the GTM of a van increases with the use of a WDH...which it does. Not only does the GTM of tge van increase,but so too does the total weight of the van.This because a WDH does NOT change towball weight.Again,in another effort to help you,I will explain how a WDH works.It removes weight from the REAR AXLE of the car,and distributes that weight to the front axle of the car,and to the van's axle group.Montie's suggestion is that 75% of the weight removed from the REAR AXLE of the car goes back onto the car's front,with the other 25% being DISTRIBUTED to the van's axle group. My weighings gave a slightly different result,but that is because my car has a long whelbase and short TBO.When I used a WDH to remove 100kg from my car's REAR AXLE,there was 66kg added to the car's front axle weight,and 34kg was added to my van's axle group. Results are that 1) Total weight of car was reduced by 34kg.b) Total weight of van was increased by 34kg.c) Weight on front axle of car was increased by 66kg d) Weight on REAR AXLE of car was reduced by 100kg e) Weight on van's axle group was increased by 34kg. It is thus clear that GCM has not changed,but all weight removed from the REAR AXLE of the car has been DISTRIBUTED to different axles.Funny that.... who would ever have thought that a Weight Distribution Hitch would DISTRIBUTE weight? Magic,isn't it? Cheers.


 



-- Edited by montie on Wednesday 3rd of March 2021 09:10:33 AM

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