Weigh note provided by a Caravan / RV Dealer

Rob Driver · Guru

Weigh note provided by a Caravan / RV Dealer

yobarr · Guru

bentaxlebabe wrote:
If buying a new van from a dealer would you expect and request a weigh note indicating the actual tare of the empty van
Regards
Rob
-- Edited by bentaxlebabe on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 10:00:53 AM

Perhaps buyers could put on their "Big Boy" pants and pay (shock,shock) to have the van weighed? And I would doubt that the van would be "empty" if purchased from a dealer.Is it not true that dealers supply full gas bottles and full water tanks? Montie may elaborate? Cheers

Rob Driver · Guru

yobarr wrote:
bentaxlebabe wrote:
If buying a new van from a dealer would you expect and request a weigh note indicating the actual tare of the empty van
Regards
Rob
-- Edited by bentaxlebabe on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 10:00:53 AM
Perhaps buyers could put on their "Big Boy" pants and pay (shock,shock) to have the van weighed? And I would doubt that the van would be "empty" if purchased from a dealer.Is it not true that dealers supply full gas bottles and full water tanks? Montie may elaborate? Cheers

Big Boy pants, how original, I note this is the second time you have used the term. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Yes yobarr it is true that dealers fill gas bottles and quite often fit other accessories and modifications that, guess what? Change the tare weight. I also did not say that a consumer should not pay for that weighnote but with reference to Possums quote from the Caravan Council maybe the dealershould be responsible. After all they are in the most part altering the plated tare weight and maybe they should be responsible.

I want all forumites reading this that tare is needed to calculate payload....

Yobarr, this is the same as calculating the payload on a truck....you know.....full tanks of fuel in a prime mover may make a difference of a tonne to the legal payload.

Regards

Rob

PS

Montie has already elaborated in his quote from from another topic below

montie wrote:

Once the van has been pre delivered and loaded for travel tare is no longer relevant.

The fully loaded van when weighed unhitched must not legally exceed the plated ATM.

Gundog · Guru

I think the poll should be removed as it is only offering 1 respose that is credible the other 2 are nonsence

yobarr · Guru

Gundog wrote:
I think the poll should be removed as it is only offering 1 respose that is credible the other 2 are nonsence

Thanks Graham....tare weight is irrelevant,provided that the ATM,GTM,towball weight and GCM are within limits when the caravan is loaded,and ready to set sail.But having only one credible response in a 'survey' is a typical ploy used by people trying to "prove" a point to others who understand even less than does the 'surveyor'.C'est la vie.Cheer

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 04:45:54 PM

montie · Guru

Every buyer would know what their gross payload is when they purchase the new van, it's simple subtract plated tare from the ATM.

Dealers cannot perform miracles and make gas and water weightless. Dealers cannot legally restamp a compliance plate.

The tare weight of the van is stamped on the plate when it leaves the factory and it will change when the van is pre delivered and again when it is loaded for travel.

It is a simple mathematical calculation to work out how much of your gross payload will be taken up by gas and water etc.,

The available gross payload has already been calculated by the manufacturer before the van is shipped and it is easily available information.

There are too many "experts" out there peddling misinformation and promoting their own agenda.

Greg 1 · Guru

Well I don't think the tare is irrelevant when you are buying a van and to have that confirmed by either a weigh bridge ticket or the dealer putting it on a set of scales whilst you are in attendance is important. The reason for this is that by subtracting the tare from the ATM on the plate, you can then know what the payload is. By a quick calculation you can then take off the water and gas weights off the payload and what you have left is what you can put in it by way of clothes, food and living utensils. If the figure for that is miserly then maybe the van is not for you. For any serious dealer, a good set of corner scales is not a huge cost considering the sales raport that it would give him with a potential customer. To get a set that will weigh a large van is about $3000 to $4000 but worth every penny in my estimate.

Tony LEE · Guru

My understanding was that at least some of the problems arises because manufacturers get a type approval that is applied to all subsequent iterations of that design The other obvious one is the new owners then order 3 solar panels, two AGM batteries and a big inverter and other nice extras not realising they have just blown half of their payload

yobarr · Guru

Tony LEE wrote:
My understanding was that at least some of the problems arises because manufacturers get a type approval that is applied to all subsequent iterations of that design The other obvious one is the new owners then order 3 solar panels, two AGM batteries and a big inverter and other nice extras not realising they have just blown half of their payload

Too true,Tony,but unlikely to help those with little understanding of weights.As posted earlier,simply get the van weighed before purchase so that you have nothing to cry about.Spare me.Cheer

yobarr · Guru

montie wrote:
Every buyer would know what their gross payload is when they purchase the new van, it's simple subtract plated tare from the ATM.
Dealers cannot perform miracles and make gas and water weightless. Dealers cannot legally restamp a compliance plate.
The tare weight of the van is stamped on the plate when it leaves the factory and it will change when the van is pre delivered and again when it is loaded for travel.
It is a simple mathematical calculation to work out how much of your gross payload will be taken up by gas and water etc.,
The available gross payload has already been calculated by the manufacturer before the van is shipped and it is easily available information.
There are too many "experts" out there peddling misinformation and promoting their own agenda.

Great post Montie,but I'm sure that some still will be confused? I am,however,somewhat disappointed that 72% of respondents seem to want to someone else to do what they really should do themselves? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 07:46:10 PM

montie · Guru

yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
Every buyer would know what their gross payload is when they purchase the new van, it's simple subtract plated tare from the ATM.
Dealers cannot perform miracles and make gas and water weightless. Dealers cannot legally restamp a compliance plate.
The tare weight of the van is stamped on the plate when it leaves the factory and it will change when the van is pre delivered and again when it is loaded for travel.
It is a simple mathematical calculation to work out how much of your gross payload will be taken up by gas and water etc.,
The available gross payload has already been calculated by the manufacturer before the van is shipped and it is easily available information.
There are too many "experts" out there peddling misinformation and promoting their own agenda.

Great post Montie,but I'm sure that some still will be confused? I am,however,somewhat disappointed that 72% of respondents seem to want to someone else to do what they teally should do themselves? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 05:36:34 PM

72% of 11 blankstare

yobarr · Guru

montie wrote:
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
Every buyer would know what their gross payload is when they purchase the new van, it's simple subtract plated tare from the ATM.
Dealers cannot perform miracles and make gas and water weightless. Dealers cannot legally restamp a compliance plate.
The tare weight of the van is stamped on the plate when it leaves the factory and it will change when the van is pre delivered and again when it is loaded for travel.
It is a simple mathematical calculation to work out how much of your gross payload will be taken up by gas and water etc.,
The available gross payload has already been calculated by the manufacturer before the van is shipped and it is easily available information.
There are too many "experts" out there peddling misinformation and promoting their own agenda.

Great post Montie,but I'm sure that some still will be confused? I am,however,somewhat disappointed that 72% of respondents seem to want to get someone else to do what they really should do for themselves? Big Boy Pants? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 05:36:34 PM
72% of 11

outlaw40 · Guru

yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
Every buyer would know what their gross payload is when they purchase the new van, it's simple subtract plated tare from the ATM.
Dealers cannot perform miracles and make gas and water weightless. Dealers cannot legally restamp a compliance plate.
The tare weight of the van is stamped on the plate when it leaves the factory and it will change when the van is pre delivered and again when it is loaded for travel.
It is a simple mathematical calculation to work out how much of your gross payload will be taken up by gas and water etc.,
The available gross payload has already been calculated by the manufacturer before the van is shipped and it is easily available information.
There are too many "experts" out there peddling misinformation and promoting their own agenda.

Great post Montie,but I'm sure that some still will be confused? I am,however,somewhat disappointed that 72% of respondents seem to want to someone else to do what they teally should do themselves? Cheers

You mean like working out what they can and cant tow
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 5th of January 2021 05:36:34 PM

Bill B · Guru

montie wrote:

Every buyer would know what their gross payload is when they purchase the new van, it's simple subtract plated tare from the ATM.

That is fine if the correct tare weight is recorded.

History has shown many vans have incorrect tare weights shown on the compliance plate.

montie · Guru

Bill B wrote:
montie wrote:

Every buyer would know what their gross payload is when they purchase the new van, it's simple subtract plated tare from the ATM.

History has shown that a number of disreputable manufacturers have misrepresented the plated tare...mainly rogue manufacturers who do not have a dealer network.
You know the ones....."buy direct and save money". You buy a van from one of those guys it's caveat emptor.
Reputable manufacturers weigh their vans....another reason to buy a reputable brand.

That is fine if the correct tare weight is recorded.

History has shown many vans have incorrect tare weights shown on the compliance plate.

Bill B · Guru

montie wrote:

History has shown that a number of disreputable manufacturers have misrepresented the plated tare...mainly rogue manufacturers who do not have a dealer network.
You know the ones....."buy direct and save money". You buy a van from one of those guys it's caveat emptor.
Reputable manufacturers weigh their vans....another reason to buy a reputable brand.

Sorry Montie but over the years many reputable brands have also had tare weights understated.

Rob Driver · Guru

montie wrote:
Every buyer would know what their gross payload is when they purchase the new van, it's simple subtract plated tare from the ATM.

Dealers cannot perform miracles and make gas and water weightless. Dealers cannot legally restamp a compliance plate.

The tare weight of the van is stamped on the plate when it leaves the factory and it will change when the van is pre delivered and again when it is loaded for travel.

It is a simple mathematical calculation to work out how much of your gross payload will be taken up by gas and water etc.,

The available gross payload has already been calculated by the manufacturer before the van is shipped and it is easily available information.

There are too many "experts" out there peddling misinformation and promoting their own agenda.

We are all aware that dealers cannot perform miracles and they cannot restamp a compliance plate unless they are qualified to do so, but dealers are the ones who may potentially alter the actual tare weight of the Caravan or RV.

So bearing this in mind why would you consider it unnecessary not to issue a new weigh note upon delivery so that the consumer ( your customer ) can calculate the payload or in laymans terms, the amount of extra items that he may carry before exceeding his plated ATM unhitched.

The fact that almost every purchaser of a new caravan will have some form of extra fitted or a modification that will alter the plated tare weight is the reason why any responsible dealer should provide a weigh note stating that new and current tare weight.

It is not, as you state, a simple equation for the new owner to calculate because unless given a new weigh note he will never know the allowable payload on his particular van. To suggest that the new owner could guess the weights of any added items is at the best, irresponsible and at the worst, dangerous and unsafe.

So montie, it may not be practice in your dealership to provide a new weigh note and explain to the client of his new payload, but I do suggest that other dealers do this as a part of handover and it is obviously something that the Caravan Council of Australia appears to support as well.

I consider your view to be part of the problem, and not part of the solution.

Oh! and I dont have an agenda as I am not a dealer.

Regards

Rob

montie · Guru

bentaxlebabe wrote:
montie wrote:
Every buyer would know what their gross payload is when they purchase the new van, it's simple subtract plated tare from the ATM.

Dealers cannot perform miracles and make gas and water weightless. Dealers cannot legally restamp a compliance plate.

The tare weight of the van is stamped on the plate when it leaves the factory and it will change when the van is pre delivered and again when it is loaded for travel.

It is a simple mathematical calculation to work out how much of your gross payload will be taken up by gas and water etc.,

The available gross payload has already been calculated by the manufacturer before the van is shipped and it is easily available information.

There are too many "experts" out there peddling misinformation and promoting their own agenda.

We are all aware that dealers cannot perform miracles and they cannot restamp a compliance plate unless they are qualified to do so, but dealers are the ones who may potentially alter the actual tare weight of the Caravan or RV.
So bearing this in mind why would you consider it unnecessary not to issue a new weigh note upon delivery so that the consumer ( your customer ) can calculate the payload or in laymans terms, the amount of extra items that he may carry before exceeding his plated ATM unhitched.
The fact that almost every purchaser of a new caravan will have some form of extra fitted or a modification that will alter the plated tare weight is the reason why any responsible dealer should provide a weigh note stating that new and current tare weight.
It is not, as you state, a simple equation for the new owner to calculate because unless given a new weigh note he will never know the allowable payload on his particular van. To suggest that the new owner could guess the weights of any added items is at the best, irresponsible and at the worst, dangerous and unsafe.
So montie, it may not be practice in your dealership to provide a new weigh note and explain to the client of his new payload, but I do suggest that other dealers do this as a part of handover and it is obviously something that the Caravan Council of Australia appears to support as well.
I consider your view to be part of the problem, and not part of the solution.
Oh! and I dont have an agenda as I am not a dealer.
Regards
Rob

Rob,
The van is weighed by the manufacturer which establishes the gross payload.
That gross payload is fully explained to all prospective buyers pointing out that water and gas is not accounted for in the gross figure....it's not rocket science.
If you have two 90 litre tanks and 2 9kg gas bottles any school kid can figure out what effect filling those tanks will have on gross payload.
Any person who cannot figure that out is in real trouble when they start loading the van for travel.
The plated tare can be supported by a weighbridge ticket on request for the non believers.
The majority of dealers are members of the Caravanning Industry Association who are our official representative.
The opinion of any other "Council" with no authority whatever, and sometimes questionable views, is of little interest to us.

Derek Barnes · Senior Member

I think it would be good if the dealer knew something about weights so that they could advise you about tare and payload weights, etc. All I was asked when we were looking for a caravan was "what car do you drive". When we answered a Patrol Y62, he said we could pull any of their vans. Then we talked about what accessories we wanted on the caravan. We picked a second solar panel, a grey water tank (90l), a second 100Ah battery, bigger fridge, etc. The caravan deal already came with bigger wheels, a second fresh water tank (90l), external LED light strip, etc. There was NO discussion of how these extra features would affect the tare and payload weights. We chose to have the ATM upgraded, but this was not suggested to us by the dealer. We are very glad that we had the ATM upgrade as we are always near the upper limit. I don't think it should be up to the buyer to somehow find out the weights of additional accessories and work out that they won't have any capacity to store clothes and food in the caravan.

Derek Barnes · Senior Member

A discussion on tare weight and payload should be part of the discussion with the dealer on what accessories are included in the caravan. If you knew that the extra 100Ah battery was going to stop you from putting food in the van you would think again. It is not good enough to have a weight note which says that you have almost no payload weight available, after having the caravan built. It should be part of the initial discussion of what is wanted on the caravan.

montie · Guru

Very few dealers fit extras to new vans opting to have them fitted by the manufacturer and have them included in the plated tare and covered by the factory warranty.

In the majority of cases the only payload calculation is gas and water which is pretty simple. If a customer were to request a dealer to fit an extra the resulting affect on payload would be explained.

If a dealer explains to you, based on the plated tare, that your gross payload is say 500kg excluding water and gas, why is that so difficult to understand?

And more importantly if you don't understand that simple situation how are you ever going to manage your other weights and ratings. Take some responsibility! blankstare

Possum3 · Guru

montie wrote:
The majority of dealers are members of the Caravanning Industry Association who are our official representative.
The opinion of any other "Council" and sometimes questionable views, is of little interest to us.

The Caravan Manufacturing Industry is Self-Regulating - FACT
The Caravan Industry Association is an Association of Caravan MANUFACTURERS, Not Consumer Advocates - FACT
The story of Fox watching the Henhouse comes to mind

Tony LEE · Guru

Reading just this topic, it seems to me that nothing has changed. The apologists for manufacturers and dealers are still insisting that an innocent buyer must become an expert to make sure that the industry was doing the right thing by their customers. They weren't doing that 40 years ago when I bought a caravan and it is obvious they aren't doing it now. To be expected in an industry that is largely self-regulated and having industry organisations that exist just to serve the industry rather than the consumer.

Rob Driver · Guru

Montie, you seem to miss the point.

We are generally all credited with knowing what a litre of water weighs and most gas bottles hold approx 9kg of gas but what about any other accessories that are fitted or supplied.
Surely I dont have to list the hundreds of options and accessories that potentially could be fitted by a dealer prior to Handover.

Montie, all these items add weight to the tare so it could only be fair to the new owner that he is aware of this increase in tare and thus a decrease in his payload and the new revised tare on the weigh note which will allow the new owner to calculate his payload.

Anything else is just a guess.

The consumer should not be classed as a non believer as the increase in tare weight is real.

Might I suggest that overlooking this increased tare weight is more common than we might realise and it certainly makes the van or Rv
appear to be more suitable to a new purchasers needs than what it is in real life. This is a great advantage to a dealer who choses to mislead their customer by using the manufacturers tare weight as opposed to the correct tare on delivery.

If the CIA doesnt support dealer weighing after fitting extras and before delivery or handover then maybe they dont have the consumers interest at heart but obviously are well supported by the dealers.

When I bought my van the dealer supplied the updated weigh note and at handover we were sat down and explained the difference that this will make to what we can legally load for travel.
My dealer did this as a part of their policy on delivery and although they were aware of our transport background they still insisted on explaining this to me.
This is a responsible action not something that should be left to guesswork for the new owner.

Try selling a semi trailer or any piece of transport equipment and misquote the tare weight.
You would not last 5 minutes in court.

Anyway I will leave it up to any potential buyer as to wether they chose a dealer that is open and upfront when it becomes to true tare weight and payload as opposed to one who tells their customers to ignore the tare on the plate but just go away and work it out for themselves.

Regards

Rob

Radar · Guru

why are people blaming everyone but themselves for buying/demanding a overloaded, oversize caravans in the first place.

The public are going out wanting the bells and whistles without giving any real thought about actual using the caravan on the road.

The mind set we will buy the big 4wd, select the beaut colour range, add all the extras out of the home, get a such and such brand of caravan to be one upmanship then hits the road with their big flash overloaded home on wheels.

The other common problem is caravan sales marketing people, the very popular Prado had a towing capacity of 2500 kgs, there was a lot of caravans built with this in mind and vin plated to suit this vehicle but as we now know not a lot of payload, hits the road technically overloaded.

Good real of thumb is, buy what you need, not what you want.

Cry once, not twice or the other is buy well the first time.

oldbloke · Guru

Derek Barnes wrote:
I think it would be good if the dealer knew something about weights so that they could advise you about tare and payload weights, etc. All I was asked when we were looking for a caravan was "what car do you drive". When we answered a Patrol Y62, he said we could pull any of their vans. Then we talked about what accessories we wanted on the caravan. We picked a second solar panel, a grey water tank (90l), a second 100Ah battery, bigger fridge, etc. The caravan deal already came with bigger wheels, a second fresh water tank (90l), external LED light strip, etc. There was NO discussion of how these extra features would affect the tare and payload weights. We chose to have the ATM upgraded, but this was not suggested to us by the dealer. We are very glad that we had the ATM upgrade as we are always near the upper limit. I don't think it should be up to the buyer to somehow find out the weights of additional accessories and work out that they won't have any capacity to store clothes and food in the caravan.

Yep that's what happened to us.

I asked several salesman and was told 500kg payloads was "heaps" you will never need it.

BS

montie · Guru

bentaxlebabe wrote:
Montie, you seem to miss the point.

We are generally all credited with knowing what a litre of water weighs and most gas bottles hold approx 9kg of gas but what about any other accessories that are fitted or supplied.
Surely I dont have to list the hundreds of options and accessories that potentially could be fitted by a dealer prior to Handover.

Montie, all these items add weight to the tare so it could only be fair to the new owner that he is aware of this increase in tare and thus a decrease in his payload and the new revised tare on the weigh note which will allow the new owner to calculate his payload.

Anything else is just a guess.

The consumer should not be classed as a non believer as the increase in tare weight is real.

Might I suggest that overlooking this increased tare weight is more common than we might realise and it certainly makes the van or Rv
appear to be more suitable to a new purchasers needs than what it is in real life. This is a great advantage to a dealer who choses to mislead their customer by using the manufacturers tare weight as opposed to the correct tare on delivery.

If the CIA doesnt support dealer weighing after fitting extras and before delivery or handover then maybe they dont have the consumers interest at heart but obviously are well supported by the dealers.

When I bought my van the dealer supplied the updated weigh note and at handover we were sat down and explained the difference that this will make to what we can legally load for travel.
My dealer did this as a part of their policy on delivery and although they were aware of our transport background they still insisted on explaining this to me.
This is a responsible action not something that should be left to guesswork for the new owner.

Try selling a semi trailer or any piece of transport equipment and misquote the tare weight.
You would not last 5 minutes in court.

Anyway I will leave it up to any potential buyer as to wether they chose a dealer that is open and upfront when it becomes to true tare weight and payload as opposed to one who tells their customers to ignore the tare on the plate but just go away and work it out for themselves.

Regards

Rob

Rob,

You are not reading my posts.

I repeat, The vast majority of dealers have options and extras fitted by the manufacturer so that they are included in the plated tare and covered by the factory warranty.

The reality here is that many non factory options and extras are fitted by the owner after delivery....but I guess that's the dealers fault as well blankstare .

Rob Driver · Guru

Radar wrote:
why are people blaming everyone but themselves for buying/demanding a overloaded, oversize caravans in the first place.
The public are going out wanting the bells and whistles without giving any real thought about actual using the caravan on the road.
The mind set we will buy the big 4wd, select the beaut colour range, add all the extras out of the home, get a such and such brand of caravan to be one upmanship then hits the road with their big flash overloaded home on wheels.
The other common problem is caravan sales marketing people, the very popular Prado had a towing capacity of 2500 kgs, there was a lot of caravans built with this in mind and vin plated to suit this vehicle but as we now know not a lot of payload, hits the road technically overloaded.
Good real of thumb is, buy what you need, not what you want.
Cry once, not twice or the other is buy well the first time.

Radar in theory you may be correct but when that guy dreaming of the big new flash van actually walks into the dealer to buy one it should be the dealers responsibility to only sell him something which will be fit for purpose and more to the point, something that will be safe and legal.

It is becoming obvious that some dealers just sell the van irresponsibly to unsuspecting buyers with the sole interest of their profit and sales commission.

Regards

Rob

montie · Guru

Possum3 wrote:
montie wrote:
The majority of dealers are members of the Caravanning Industry Association who are our official representative.
The opinion of any other "Council" and sometimes questionable views, is of little interest to us.

The Caravan Manufacturing Industry is Self-Regulating - FACT
The Caravan Industry Association is an Association of Caravan MANUFACTURERS, Not Consumer Advocates - FACT
The story of Fox watching the Henhouse comes to mind

That's why we have the Australian Consumer Act to deal with those dealers or manufacturers who do the wrong thing.

Rob Driver · Guru

montie wrote:
bentaxlebabe wrote:
Montie, you seem to miss the point.

We are generally all credited with knowing what a litre of water weighs and most gas bottles hold approx 9kg of gas but what about any other accessories that are fitted or supplied.
Surely I dont have to list the hundreds of options and accessories that potentially could be fitted by a dealer prior to Handover.

Montie, all these items add weight to the tare so it could only be fair to the new owner that he is aware of this increase in tare and thus a decrease in his payload and the new revised tare on the weigh note which will allow the new owner to calculate his payload.

Anything else is just a guess.

The consumer should not be classed as a non believer as the increase in tare weight is real.

Might I suggest that overlooking this increased tare weight is more common than we might realise and it certainly makes the van or Rv
appear to be more suitable to a new purchasers needs than what it is in real life. This is a great advantage to a dealer who choses to mislead their customer by using the manufacturers tare weight as opposed to the correct tare on delivery.

If the CIA doesnt support dealer weighing after fitting extras and before delivery or handover then maybe they dont have the consumers interest at heart but obviously are well supported by the dealers.

When I bought my van the dealer supplied the updated weigh note and at handover we were sat down and explained the difference that this will make to what we can legally load for travel.
My dealer did this as a part of their policy on delivery and although they were aware of our transport background they still insisted on explaining this to me.
This is a responsible action not something that should be left to guesswork for the new owner.

Try selling a semi trailer or any piece of transport equipment and misquote the tare weight.
You would not last 5 minutes in court.

Anyway I will leave it up to any potential buyer as to wether they chose a dealer that is open and upfront when it becomes to true tare weight and payload as opposed to one who tells their customers to ignore the tare on the plate but just go away and work it out for themselves.

Regards

Rob
Rob,
You are not reading my posts.
I repeat, The vast majority of dealers have options and extras fitted by the manufacturer so that they are included in the plated tare and covered by the factory warranty.
The reality here is that many non factory options and extras are fitted by the owner after delivery....but I guess that's the dealers fault as well.

Montie, I am reading your posts.

Caravan RV dealers have spare parts and show rooms full of accessories. Your dealership has one.

When a client wants you to fit an extra, you fit it dont you.

Regards

Rob