Mike Harding wrote:

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dogbox wrote:

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see what happens when the ideas get floated ,we start to get conditioned to accept what is coming

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I intended to pick up on this but forgot: an astute comment and something which has often worried me in recent years and especially with the ubiquitous spread of media et al.

It seems that once a proposition has been repeated many times it becomes a fact and I am reminded of a quotation I rather like:

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.

Anatole France [Jacques Anatole Thibault] (1844-1924)

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Yes, people miss understand, gullible or ignorant of our political systems. Media beats it up but the "bill" hasn't even been written yet, let alone passed both houses. 

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People keep saying the pension is welfare but in fact it's not. It was originally a levy paid as a separate payment to income tax much like a super contribution. At some point a certain government rolled it all together with the income tax as one payment. Instead of investing the pension contributions as they should have done, successive governments have tipped it into general revenue and spent it and now the chickens have come home to roost with not enough in the kitty to pay the bill so pollies are looking at every which way not to pay it or reduce it. They knew this day was coming for decades and none did anything about it except to make employers pay compulsory super to pull them out of the poo. All of us who have worked all our working lives and contributed to the pension scheme are morally entitled to it. It is our money that went into it that the government has snaffled in a very underhand manner.

Greg 1 wrote:

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 They knew this day was coming for decades and none did anything about it except to make employers pay compulsory super to pull them out of the poo. 

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Greg, Small point of contention - Employer's do NOT pay compulsory superannuation - employers collect a percentage of Worker's remuneration (wages/salary) and allocate the funds into an employees preferred retirement fund or scheme.  

Mike Harding wrote:

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dogbox wrote:

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assume average wage $ 75,000 per annum ? based on 38 hr week that would be approx $ 38 per hour

first $45001 tax payable $5092 next $ 30,000 at 32.5% = $9750 + $5092 = $ 14842 = 570.84 per fortnight

if single pension $882.20 per fortnight. less tax per fortnight (assuming $75,000 per annum/$2884.61 per fortnight)$ 570.84 = a short fall of 311.36 per fortnight
if figures are roughly correct based on to days numbers someone might remember how much tax they paid in 1970 and compare it to what they get back as a OAP today assuming tax payed all went towards the pension which it does't. how long could you draw a pension till the bank was dry

roger roger back to you

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You're still not taking inflation, variations in interest rate or indirect taxes into account, in any event I suggest your argument is specious; it is clear most of the Western world, USA excepted, wants a welfare state society not a user pays one and indeed that is what has eventuated for many decades in all the Western countries. I am sure (I certainly hope) you would not argue for a user pays healthcare system?

The age pension in Oz is means tested and that is right and proper, the state should not be giving welfare to those who do not need it. Having said that ... it now occurs to me one could make the same argument about Medicare, if you have the funds how do you feel about paying all your medical bills?

Welfare is a difficult area with the devil in the detail but I *never* wish to live in society where good people suffer significant hardship because of bad luck or a few poor choices in life. If a society will not care for its weakest then it's not really a society it seem to me.

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 Agree strongly

 

Mike Harding wrote:

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dogbox wrote:

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what a person pays in income tax would not even come close to covering the OAP let alone the concessions you get with the card.

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 Perhaps you are correct, I don't know but... my question is; are you adjusting for inflation in your rather wild statement?

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to give you an exact figure would be impossible for a poor simple soul like myself .

now some simple research and a calculator in 1970 my weekly wage was about $ 75-80.00 a week with a bit of overtime (so assume average for purpose of simplicity), my tax payable on an annual wage of approx $3900 was $ 650 per annum now according to a previous post the pension factor was 7.5 % or $ 48 per annum if my figures are correct

at some point the government has absorbed this amount put aside into consolidated revenue

50 years later if i was entitled to a pension i would be drawing it out at nearly $ 23,000 per annum todays money, not a bad investment

as far as the present super system / pension i believe it gets taxed at 15% going in, what happens if they decide to tax it at an additional 15% coming out
or classify it as taxable income
remember JOHN HOWARD when he wanted to buy back all the guns he put a 1% surcharge on the medicare levy to fund it, we took it in our stride, we paid the levy, it use to be 1.5%

Greg 1 wrote:

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People keep saying the pension is welfare but in fact it's not.
It was originally a levy paid as a separate payment to income tax much like a super contribution.
At some point a certain government rolled it all together with the income tax as one payment.
Instead of investing the pension contributions as they should have done, successive governments have tipped it into general revenue and spent it and now the chickens have come home to roost with not enough in the kitty to pay the bill so pollies are looking at every which way not to pay it or reduce it. They knew this day was coming for decades and none did anything about it except to make employers pay compulsory super to pull them out of the poo.
All of us who have worked all our working lives and contributed to the pension scheme are morally entitled to it. It is our money that went into it that the government has snaffled in a very underhand manner.

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at this point in time the OAP is not welfare but as super starts to become the dominate source of funding retirement ,the government of the day may decide that the OAP is no longer relevant and lump it in the welfare basket .remembering the next generation should have enough in their super to fund their own retirement with no government contribution , after all they will get a very generous pension plan after a short period in parliament

Whenarewethere wrote:

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People are already retiring with ever larger mortgages & paying that off with super, then going on the pension.

In the meantime the tax breaks for super in a few years will be worth more than simply giving everyone a pension.

The whole system is broken.

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thoughts like that might get them thinking to class what you draw out is income or at least to tax what comes out as well as what goes in.

they are cooking something up to get at the large amounts in super one way or another it may come in the form of what they will do in 20 years the young one are not interested, too far in the future and it won't affect us oldies so who is going to make much noise

Mate that is the best Utube video I have seen. Satire of course for those that cannot tell themselves. I will work through some of the others later !!
You make up your own mind as to whether the topics are covered well or not but at least think about them !
Jaahn

The video was well written and acted :)

The cashless card is a difficult one: my understanding is that it has been very positive in Aboriginal communities but I don't think I wish to see it become mandatory for the general population. The video made a good point about poor people buying with cash from markets and secondhand sales. And if people wish to buy cigs. or booze rather than food then I guess that's their choice.... 

Mike Harding wrote:

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The video was well written and acted :)

The cashless card is a difficult one: my understanding is that it has been very positive in Aboriginal communities but I don't think I wish to see it become mandatory for the general population. The video made a good point about poor people buying with cash from markets and secondhand sales. And if people wish to buy cigs. or booze rather than food then I guess that's their choice.... 

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will covid be a big contributor to way we feel about cashless society ?
as i understand the welfare system, people get payed a pension less deductions for public housing ect if required, so no matter what they do with the rest ,their basic bills are payed an they have a roof over their heads
the cashless card was as far as i know very successful in the remote aboriginal communities because it meant the women didn't have cash available to be robbed by the local stand over men or spent on booze ,drugs ,cigs, if they were in desperate need of cash they could sell their cards or the good purchased at least some of the money was going for food for the kids and some of the stand over men moved on

the cashless OAP has been mentioned by the OP, we are being conditioned to accept the idea ,going by some of the comments posted on here .
i think when super becomes the norm for financing retirement the OAP will become redundant for most people who worked all their lives

Craig1 wrote:

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Well I have it in writing ( email) from my local Member, Ms Sussan Ley, Minister for Environment that The current Govt has No Plans to quarantine any pension payments. Question asked and answered in about 2 hours.

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 Yep, the Polies are firmly focused on an upcoming election. They certainly have their talking points on this issue.

I am firmly of the view that it is extremely unlikely that they would take the unnecessary risk of opening themselves up to adverse reaction from large sections of the voting public by such policies as cashless Pension/benefits cards or even including part or all of the Family home in pension Assets test, or negative gearing  etc.   We are all like a mob of bloody sheep!  Especially in this age of mass media like Facebook/Twitter et al.

Just cast your mind back to how the Franking Credit issue was exploited in the last election.   

There are quite enough contentious issues out there & conventional wisdom is that in Australia, Govts get themselves out of office rather than the Opposition getting themselves in.  Perhaps the Opposition will make themselves a small target (but they may not be smart enough to do so) & the Govt will become born again greenies if only they can reign in their far right & the Nats, sling a few last minute sweeteners about like Little Johnny Howard or King Ming, and Bobs your Uncle and they are back in.   

Then perhaps this issue will be back on the table.

 

Am I cynical and a little bit biased or what?

 

LOL   (I tried very hard not to be too political)

 

I like that one When

Craig1 wrote:

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I like that one When

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 Colloquially known as the Silverfishy card!

While an election is on the horizon then the polititions will deny the Indue card for pensioners. Wait & see after the election, Any polly will tell you what you want to hear to get elected.