Improving traction in mud with a WDH

yobarr · Guru

Improving traction in mud with a WDH

oldbloke · Guru

yobarr wrote:
KJB wrote:
If Rear Wheel Drive ----- less traction ( not what is needed)...............KB
As usual, Kerry, you are correct. If the driver of the vehicle being discussed were to go to extremes, they could actually tension the WDH so much that the rear wheels of the car would leave the ground. This would help to force the caravan's wheels, and the front wheels of the car, further into the mire, totally immobilising the car if it were rear wheel drive only. However, if the WDH were used in the same way that most seem to be used, the effect would be minimal, as many seem to mistakenly believe that the main reason for using a WDH is to make the car and van more level, but that is not at all important unless the van has non-load sharing suspension. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 27th of April 2022 09:35:53 AM

Mmmm, if you get an upgrade to the tug, driver could also be so stupid as to GO TO EXTREMS and load the tug until the axle or chassis snaps.

Same thing.

Pretty silly example/statement. Bit like someone clutching at straws IMO.

:) CHEERS.

Dougwe · Chief one feather

I'm thinking of changing to a Motorhome. I don't have to worry about WDH then. Ooops, I don't use one anyway.

Keep Safe out there everyone (no picking up Covid hitch hikers)

yobarr · Guru

Dougwe wrote:
I'm thinking of changing to a Motorhome. I don't have to worry about WDH then. Ooops, I don't use one anyway.

Keep Safe out there everyone (no picking up Covid hitch hikers)

Good to see that you are among those of us who have no use for this overrated, but universally accepted, cure-it-all. Cheers

Bobdown · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Bobdown wrote:

Yobarr, that story doesn't ring true........every Cruiser I've had has constant AWD and Diff Locks.
Cheers Bob
My car also is a Landcruiser, but it has to have front hubs engaged manually if I wish to use the 4wd feature. This also makes it easy to use low range to reverse into tight spots or up steep hills on bitumen without risking transmission wind-up, because drive is being transmitted to only the rear wheels. Cheers
P.S Could I respectfully suggest, Bob, that you read about, and learn what AWD is, and how the 4wd feature is enabled?

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 28th of April 2022 04:42:33 PM

We will call you Teflon Chris from now on !! Nothing sticks to you does it, you just deflect $hit like Teflon.

Because you drive a 79 series, I don't call that a Landcruiser, it's just a ute that drives like a truck. A load of crap on the road, and you have the cheek to rubbish LC200's, that are far better to drive than that truck you drive.

You have no idea what I've driven or what I've owned in my life, or how much 4wding I've done and you tell me to read about it and learn.

Your story is a pile of crap and nothing to with the OP, which is why I called you out Xspurt.

Don't bother to answer cos you will only change the story again. Very sad.

Cheers Bob

jegog · Senior Member

Stewart wrote:
I had a thought. What if the wdh was reversed. So chains hooked on to the tow shank and fixed to the caravan draw bar would the results be the same for towing. (nothing to do with mud). Cheers Stewart

It wound make absolutely no difference. Think of the WDH as one of those spiral gate closer springs. Doesn't matter which way you mount it.

Hitting the road · Senior Member

Hey yobarr...trust you are on the mend.... So true about early 4wd's being in fact 2wd, and a 2wd really only a 1wd....lol.

Errr, .Bobdown...the 1976 FJ55 "Landcruiser" I owned at one point was not AWD and definitely did not have diff locks! i imagine that might be the era that yobarr is referring to. AWD's did not appear until after the 80 series Landcruiser as far as I am aware. Nissans, a whole new ball game again...

yobarr · Guru

Hitting the road wrote:
Hey yobarr...trust you are on the mend.... So true about early 4wd's being in fact 2wd, and a 2wd really only a 1wd....lol.

Errr, .Bobdown...the 1976 FJ55 "Landcruiser" I owned at one point was not AWD and definitely did not have diff locks! i imagine that might be the era that yobarr is referring to. AWD's did not appear until after the 80 series Landcruiser as far as I am aware. Nissans, a whole new ball game again...

Thanks Dean, for your support. It sometimes is disappointing to have intelligent people dispute the facts I supply, possibly because they haven't actually read and understood my post. Few understand how AWD and 4WD actually works, and how they differ. C'est la vie. Cheers

P.S Thanks for your kind words. Following yesterday's XRays, today I have to have an ultrasound. Still dosed up on Endone too, but all is good!

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 29th of April 2022 02:57:20 PM

rgren2 · Guru

Some confuse centre diff lock with locked diffs too. My Patrol has lsd, which is very good, I also have the ability to lock my front diff, making it a three and a half wheel drive.

yobarr · Guru

rgren2 wrote:
Some confuse centre diff lock with locked diffs too. My Patrol has lsd, which is very good, I also have the ability to lock my front diff, making it a three and a half wheel drive.

In this case, Rod, your comment about the centre diff lock is indeed relevant, because I think that that is what was mistakenly being discussed when my post was disputed. As asserted earlier, in many cases an LSD equipped vehicle will out perform a so-called 4wd, which is actually only 2wd because only one wheel drives on each diff. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 29th of April 2022 02:53:46 PM

Bobdown · Guru

Hitting the road wrote:
Hey yobarr...trust you are on the mend.... So true about early 4wd's being in fact 2wd, and a 2wd really only a 1wd....lol.

Errr, .Bobdown...the 1976 FJ55 "Landcruiser" I owned at one point was not AWD and definitely did not have diff locks! i imagine that might be the era that yobarr is referring to. AWD's did not appear until after the 80 series Landcruiser as far as I am aware. Nissans, a whole new ball game again...

I didn't say the FJ55 had AWD, I said every Crusier I've had did and Diff locks.

I disputed Yobarr's story coz everything he says has extra Mayonnaise on top, because he has been there and done everything.

He has a hatred of LC200 that is unequalled and cannot see past his truck-like 79 series, so that makes his comments so biased it's not worth reading. Same for WDH.

I do not usually bother to get involved with some parts of the Forum, but have to call him out occasionally and all he does is change the subject matter and defer from a straight answer. Just ask Oldbloke

I'll stick to the Jokes and Photo sections from now on....

Cheers Bob

KJB · Guru

yobarr wrote:
rgren2 wrote:
Some confuse centre diff lock with locked diffs too. My Patrol has lsd, which is very good, I also have the ability to lock my front diff, making it a three and a half wheel drive.
In this case, Rod, your comment about the centre diff lock is indeed relevant, because I think that that is what was mistakenly being discussed when my post was disputed. As asserted earlier, in many cases an LSD equipped vehicle will out perform a so-called 4wd, which is actually only 2wd because only one wheel drives on each diff. Cheers

Then get real serious with a 4WD that has Diff Locks front and rear ......and even then its performance is all dependent on how much traction the tyres can get .......... KB

yobarr · Guru

Bobdown wrote:
Hitting the road wrote:
Hey yobarr...trust you are on the mend.... So true about early 4wd's being in fact 2wd, and a 2wd really only a 1wd....lol.

Errr, .Bobdown...the 1976 FJ55 "Landcruiser" I owned at one point was not AWD and definitely did not have diff locks! i imagine that might be the era that yobarr is referring to. AWD's did not appear until after the 80 series Landcruiser as far as I am aware. Nissans, a whole new ball game again...
I didn't say the FJ55 had AWD, I said every Crusier I've had did and Diff locks.
I disputed Yobarr's story coz everything he says has extra Mayonnaise on top, because he has been there and done everything.
He has a hatred of LC200 that is unequalled and cannot see past his truck-like 79 series, so that makes his comments so biased it's not worth reading. Same for WDH.
I do not usually bother to get involved with some parts of the Forum, but have to call him out occasionally and all he does is change the subject matter and defer from a straight answer. Just ask Oldbloke
I'll stick to the Jokes and Photo sections from now on....
Cheers Bob

In your post at 9.07pm yesterday, you said "Don't bother to answer " so I simply respected your wishes. Cheers

yobarr · Guru

KJB wrote:
yobarr wrote:
rgren2 wrote:
Some confuse centre diff lock with locked diffs too. My Patrol has lsd, which is very good, I also have the ability to lock my front diff, making it a three and a half wheel drive.
In this case, Rod, your comment about the centre diff lock is indeed relevant, because I think that that is what was mistakenly being discussed when my post was disputed. As asserted earlier, in many cases an LSD equipped vehicle will out perform a so-called 4wd, which is actually only 2wd because only one wheel drives on each diff. Cheers
Then get real serious with a 4WD that has Diff Locks front and rear ......and even then its performance is all dependent on how much traction the tyres can get .......... KB

Yeah Kerry, got those too, and a winch! Not many places the old ute can't go! Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 29th of April 2022 02:52:27 PM

yobarr · Guru

jegog wrote:
Stewart wrote:
I had a thought. What if the wdh was reversed. So chains hooked on to the tow shank and fixed to the caravan draw bar would the results be the same for towing. (nothing to do with mud). Cheers Stewart
It wound make absolutely no difference . Think of the WDH as one of those spiral gate closer springs. Doesn't matter which way you mount it.

Not sure about that, Dennis, because of the different leverage points between having the rigidly mounted WDH head unit on the towbar, 1300-1400mm from the car's rear axle, and having that rigid unit on the van's drawbar, metres from both the car's rear axle and the van's axle group. The 'chain' end of the WDH obviously is flexible, so no leverage there perhaps? More calculations needed when I can concentrate. Cheers

Bobdown · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Bobdown wrote:
Hitting the road wrote:
Hey yobarr...trust you are on the mend.... So true about early 4wd's being in fact 2wd, and a 2wd really only a 1wd....lol.

Errr, .Bobdown...the 1976 FJ55 "Landcruiser" I owned at one point was not AWD and definitely did not have diff locks! i imagine that might be the era that yobarr is referring to. AWD's did not appear until after the 80 series Landcruiser as far as I am aware. Nissans, a whole new ball game again...
I didn't say the FJ55 had AWD, I said every Crusier I've had did and Diff locks.
I disputed Yobarr's story coz everything he says has extra Mayonnaise on top, because he has been there and done everything.
He has a hatred of LC200 that is unequalled and cannot see past his truck-like 79 series, so that makes his comments so biased it's not worth reading. Same for WDH.
I do not usually bother to get involved with some parts of the Forum, but have to call him out occasionally and all he does is change the subject matter and defer from a straight answer. Just ask Oldbloke
I'll stick to the Jokes and Photo sections from now on....
Cheers Bob
In your post at 9.07pm yesterday, you said "Don't bother to answer " so I simply respected your wishes. Cheers

I was responding to Dean's comment to me and his reference to you..........Not always about you Chris.

Cheers Bob

Dougwe · Chief one feather

rgren2 · Guru

KJB wrote:
yobarr wrote:
rgren2 wrote:
Some confuse centre diff lock with locked diffs too. My Patrol has lsd, which is very good, I also have the ability to lock my front diff, making it a three and a half wheel drive.
In this case, Rod, your comment about the centre diff lock is indeed relevant, because I think that that is what was mistakenly being discussed when my post was disputed. As asserted earlier, in many cases an LSD equipped vehicle will out perform a so-called 4wd, which is actually only 2wd because only one wheel drives on each diff. Cheers
Then get real serious with a 4WD that has Diff Locks front and rear ......and even then its performance is all dependent on how much traction the tyres can get .......... KB
Ive never felt the need for a rear locker. And I have done some serious off road driving. I find that the lsd is quite sufficient.

jegog · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:
jegog wrote:
Stewart wrote:
I had a thought. What if the wdh was reversed. So chains hooked on to the tow shank and fixed to the caravan draw bar would the results be the same for towing. (nothing to do with mud). Cheers Stewart
It wound make absolutely no difference . Think of the WDH as one of those spiral gate closer springs. Doesn't matter which way you mount it.
Not sure about that, Dennis, because of the different leverage points between having the rigidly mounted WDH head unit on the towbar, 1300-1400mm from the car's rear axle, and having that rigid unit on the van's drawbar, metres from both the car's rear axle and the van's axle group. The 'chain' end of the WDH obviously is flexible, so no leverage there perhaps? More calculations needed when I can concentrate. Cheers

I thought that a WDH was a torsion bar arrangement. Some designer use chains and others use slides on the van to enable the van to turn.
The chains when under tension act as a solid lump of steel with pivoting ends

oldbloke · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Stewart wrote:
I had a thought. What if the wdh was reversed. So chains hooked on to the tow shank and fixed to the caravan draw bar would the results be the same for towing. (nothing to do with mud). Cheers Stewart
Interesting question that you ask here Stewart, but because I am currently dosed up on very strong painkillers after a bit of an incident yesterday, on the Roadtrain, I am unable to concentrate enough to offer a meaningful opinion. Perhaps others will be able to help, but my initial thoughts are that the weight being transferred would differ because of different leverage points? Just a guess though! Cheers

Gee Yobarr, if your that crook it sounds like you need a trip to the Dr. Get a professional opinion and perhaps a week or two off work. Then, In case you don't know you will be able, in all probability put in a compo claim.

Get patched up after a few weeks off work, then back in the driver's seat. Hope it isn't too serious, ya gotta look after your health.

Cheers :)

yobarr · Guru

jegog wrote:
yobarr wrote:
jegog wrote:
Stewart wrote:
I had a thought. What if the wdh was reversed. So chains hooked on to the tow shank and fixed to the caravan draw bar would the results be the same for towing. (nothing to do with mud). Cheers Stewart
It wound make absolutely no difference . Think of the WDH as one of those spiral gate closer springs. Doesn't matter which way you mount it.
Not sure about that, Dennis, because of the different leverage points between having the rigidly mounted WDH head unit on the towbar, 1300-1400mm from the car's rear axle, and having that rigid unit on the van's drawbar, metres from both the car's rear axle and the van's axle group. The 'chain' end of the WDH obviously is flexible, so no leverage there perhaps? More calculations needed when I can concentrate. Cheers

I thought that a WDH was a torsion bar arrangement. Some designer use chains and others use slides on the van to enable the van to turn.
The chains when under tension act as a solid lump of steel with pivoting ends

Hi Dennis. Bit rushed at moment, as off to get ultra-sound, but these are photos of two common types of WDH, the first being the more common, and probably better Hayman Reese, while tge second is an Andersen (on?) hitch. Details and explanation later. Cheers.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

If you are bogged or near bogged in mud, your WDH will be acting like a plough. It certainly won't be helping.
So jettison the WDH and probably the caravan too, because that will be acting like an anchor.
Cheers,
Peter

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Doesnt anyone have common sense these days ?

oldbloke · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Dougwe wrote:
I'm thinking of changing to a Motorhome. I don't have to worry about WDH then. Ooops, I don't use one anyway.

Keep Safe out there everyone (no picking up Covid hitch hikers)
Good to see that you are among those of us who have no use for this overrated, but universally accepted, cure-it-all. Cheers

Well actually, the over rated cure all is a rear axle upgrade. Does nothing for understeer on front axles due to weight removed when loading up the rear axle. Basic physics really, just a see saw. Bloody dangerous IMO. Upgrades should never, never, never be allowed. They are bad bad bad.

I mean if they were safe the manufacturers would make them like that off the production line, or recommend you do it. Lol

And to add, once some get the upgrade they think it's OK to over load the tug. Just not on. I see it all the time.

WDHs thought, distribute some of the rear axle weight to the front axle making the whole set up safer. HR WDHs are fabulous.

KJB · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
If you are bogged or near bogged in mud, your WDH will be acting like a plough. It certainly won't be helping.
So jettison the WDH and probably the caravan too, because that will be acting like an anchor.
Cheers,
Peter

Exactly. Unhitch and extract the Tow vehicle while it is still possible - then you can snig /winch the trailer/van from the bog site providing there is some solid ground in the vicinity....

yobarr · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Stewart wrote:
I had a thought. What if the wdh was reversed. So chains hooked on to the tow shank and fixed to the caravan draw bar would the results be the same for towing. (nothing to do with mud). Cheers Stewart
Interesting question that you ask here Stewart, but because I am currently dosed up on very strong painkillers after a bit of an incident yesterday, on the Roadtrain, I am unable to concentrate enough to offer a meaningful opinion. Perhaps others will be able to help, but my initial thoughts are that the weight being transferred would differ because of different leverage points? Just a guess though! Cheers

Gee Yobarr, if your that crook it sounds like you need a trip to the Dr. Get a professional opinion and perhaps a week or two off work. Then, In case you don't know you will be able, in all probability put in a compo claim.
Get patched up after a few weeks off work, then back in the driver's seat. Hope it isn't too serious, ya gotta look after your health.
Cheers :)

Thankyou Neil, for your kind thoughts, which are accepted in the spirit in which they, hopefully, were offered? Yes, I have been to the Doctor, who then sent me to have a series of Xrays. Next stop was an ultrasound clinic, where all sorts of pretty pictures were taken. However, it will now take said Doctors a week to analyse the results and deliver a verdict. Meanwhile, I will continue to drive the Road Train and the Loader in an effort to further assist the young fellow who owns this small business. Might be time to slow down a bit, though, as last year I had to have knuckles replaced in my right wrist, and before that there was rotator cuff problems. Too many years of hard physical work. Cheers

yobarr · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Dougwe wrote:
I'm thinking of changing to a Motorhome. I don't have to worry about WDH then. Ooops, I don't use one anyway.

Keep Safe out there everyone (no picking up Covid hitch hikers)
Good to see that you are among those of us who have no use for this overrated, but universally accepted, cure-it-all. Cheers
Well actually, the over rated cure all is a rear axle upgrade. Does nothing for understeer on front axles due to weight removed when loading up the rear axle. Basic physics really, just a see saw. Bloody dangerous IMO. Upgrades should never, never, never be allowed. They are bad bad bad.
I mean if they were safe the manufacturers would make them like that off the production line, or recommend you do it. Lol
And to add, once some get the upgrade they think it's OK to over load the tug. Just not on. I see it all the time.
WDHs thought, distribute some of the rear axle weight to the front axle making the whole set up safer. HR WDHs are fabulous.

Some models of vehicles possibly may benefit from rear axle upgrades, while others, like the LC79, already have a 2300kg rear axle rating when they leave the factory, so certainly do not need any upgrade. Simply combining the factory axle ratings results in this particular car having a GVM of 3780kg, and allow it to safely reach its rated GCM of 6800kg. Having a higher rear axle rating does NOT necessarily mean understeer will be more likely, as much depends on how the vehicle is loaded. If more than 50% of the load is ahead of the rear axle, even by the smallest amount, weight on the car's front axle will actually increase. If the piddling little amount that a WDH transfers from the rear axle to the front axle is the difference between life and death, there are far greater problems already present in the subject vehicle. As I have said many times, and some are starting to understand, WDHs are used only by those who are trying to make a car do things for which it never was designed. WDHs are NOT the cure-it-all that many believe them to be, and often create more problems than they apparently "solve". Think added weight on rear axle, before tensioning, increased towball overhang, with the associated real dangers of yaw, and the dangers of oversteer, which many have no idea how to handle. Letting go of the steering wheel and screaming loudly, which I have witnessed, is generally not a effective reaction when your car starts to oversteer. Cheers.

oldbloke · Guru

I need to correct you mate.

Upgrades are used only by those who are trying to make a car do things for which it never was designed.

Cheers :)

yobarr · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
I need to correct you mate.

Upgrades are used only by those who are trying to make a car do things for which it never was designed.

Cheers :)

If a car is released for sale with a 2300kg rear axle and a 1480kg front axle, but onky 3300kg GVM, the so-called upgrade is simply a product of combining the two axle ratings. Couldn't be more simple, surely? Cheers

oldbloke · Guru

yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
I need to correct you mate.

Upgrades are used only by those who are trying to make a car do things for which it never was designed.

Cheers :)
If a car is released for sale with a 2300kg rear axle and a 1480kg front axle, but onky 3300kg GVM, the so-called upgrade is simply a product of combining the two axle ratings. Couldn't be more simple, surely? Cheers

I think you are looking at it too simply. It is about the ability of the whole tug to take the load, not just the axles. It is a package deal, and other considerations.

It is only as strong as the weakest link.

If the manufacturer (highly qualified auto/mechanical engineers) thought it was ok to load it up to a higher rating they would. After all that would mean more sales and more profit.

You can be assured there is a reason why they limit it to 3300kg.

Problem is, sometimes the owners think they know more than the engineers.

Manufacturers spend many millions designing and testing their product. I think they know far more than all those here discussing the topic combined.