oldbloke wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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oldbloke wrote:

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I need to correct you mate.

Upgrades are used only by those who are trying to make a car do things for which it never was designed.

 

Cheers  :)

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 If a car is released for sale with a 2300kg rear axle and a 1480kg front axle, but onky 3300kg GVM, the so-called upgrade is simply a product of combining the two axle ratings. Couldn't be more simple, surely? Cheers

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 I think you are looking at it too simply. It is about the ability of the whole tug to take the load, not just the axles. It is a package deal, and other considerations.

 

It is only as strong as the weakest link.

 

If the manufacturer (highly qualified auto/mechanical engineers) thought it was ok to load it up to a higher rating they would. After all that would mean more sales and more profit.

 

You can be assured there is a reason why they limit it to 3300kg.

 

Problem is, sometimes the owners think they know more than the engineers.

 

Manufacturers spend many millions designing and testing their product. I think they know far more than all those here discussing the topic combined.

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Land Rover, a reference from 2018, so not exactly sure what was spent, but the intention, out of the 13 billion pounds.

51% goes into development of new models

27% goes into setting up new plants (capacity expansion)

9% goes into petrol/diesel engine R&D

13% goes into electric powertrain R&D

 

Land Rover is a small player so I would hate to think how much the big manufacturers are spending.

More to do with the extra weight on the A frame from what looks like a generator box and the weld at the end of that bracing under the a frame . BUT I'm happy to admit I'm not qualified to make a judgement call . your photo is far from a smoking gun .

Stewart wrote:

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Thanks Yobarr interesting analisys. Looking at John C video on wdh I thought it it might move the fulcrum to to the caravan. And thus put more weight on the caravan axles. But as it can't be done it won't happen. Cheers Stewart

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 All is good, Stewart. Much time was spent trying various options, but it eventually became so clear. There no doubt will be many who disagree with my analysis, but it is so simple it's boring! Cheers

Jaahn wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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Stewart wrote:

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Thanks Yobarr interesting analisys. Looking at John C video on wdh I thought it it might move the fulcrum to to the caravan. And thus put more weight on the caravan axles. But as it can't be done it won't happen. Cheers Stewart

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 All is good, Stewart. Much time was spent trying various options, but it eventually became so clear. There no doubt will be many who disagree with my analysis, but it is so simple it's boring! Cheers

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 Hi Yobarr 

I disagree as I said above and say you are wrong. In your analysis you moved the unit to the wrong place. The pivot is the ball as you said and if you moved it where you said all connected on the drawbar it would not work. It should be moved so the chains are acting on the vehicle somewhere underneath, if the head was mounted on the drawbar. 

 But I will not comment any further as it will just descend into a morass of silly discussion. It is about levers and moments and points of action of the forces. One point of action is on the vehicle and the other is on the van, with the pivot at the ball. So simple its boring.

Jaahn   

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Hi Jaahn. Could I draw your attention to the wording in the initial enquiry by Stewart? He mentions "tow shank" as a mounting point for the chains, and all my calculations centred around that. Simple physics will prove me correct! Cheers

 

yobarr wrote:

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dogbox wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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Hitting the road wrote:

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Hmmm, I'd be thinking the total opposite...best remove the WDH bars. With a conventional 2wd the trailer ball weight would be back on the drive where it is needed. If there was a slight tendency to lift a bit of weight off the steer...all good in fact as less plough effect.

Sometimes high tyre pressures would assist as the tyres will sink in to the mud finding bite, where low pressures will see the tyres "floating" over the mud...

Might get a bit of understeer with the lighter front end but nothing some careful driving wouldn't control. Different with a 4wd, a WDH would make little difference I reckon as all wheels would be driving anyway...

Remember the old VW beach buggies...they'd go almost anywhere with just rear wheel drive as the weight was over the drive, and the front end was quite light therefore didn't bog in as much...

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 Great post Dean, with perhaps your anology with the VW beach buggies being most relevant. Many of the points you make display your good understanding of simple physics, combined with healthy doses of common sense. Cheers

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 might want to check how many wheels will actually be driving unless diff locks are fitted? 

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 Good point Dean, perhaps understood by few. Unless a "4WD" vehicle is fitted with diff locks, it will only actually be 2wd, driving only one wheel on each axle at any one time. Similarly, a 2wd vehicle will be only 1wd, driving one wheel on the drive axle. Some year ago I worked in cotton-country around Gurley, NSW, and when I arrived in my F100 351V8 with its limited slip diff all the local cowboys, driving their Patrols and Cruisers, laughed at me, asking me where I thought I was going in my F100. However, after lots of rain, my car was the only vehicle able to deliver us to the local pub, with the Patrols and Cruisers dropping both wheels on one side into one of the many ruts, leaving the other two wheels on the high,unweighted, side spinning hopelessly. Much fun was had rescuing these cars! Few understand how a 4wd works, evidenced some years ago when I was visiting my father who lived on the beach front in NSW. We were enjoying an ale when there was a knock on the door, a couple of chaps asking for help as they were stuck on the beach. These chaps had each recently bought a 4wd and had decided to try them on the beach. As soon as we saw the cars, we knew what was wrong .. they hadn't engaged the front hubs, and the cars were sitting down at the rear. "Derr, we put it in 4wd" they both said, showing us the range selection gear lever. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 28th of April 2022 10:48:47 AM

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Fortunately modern 4x4s no longer need diff locks.

To prevent wheel spin they use wheel turning encoders and brakes.

A sun baking kangaroo near Burketown, took off one of my front wheel wheel-turning assemblies which turned off all 4 wheel drive modes and the stability control.

Got it replaced in Cairns, missed the turn-off to Townsville.

After connecting to the computer they determined that the wheel-turning assembly needed replacing. Told me it was a warranty repair and that unless I paid for the part to be overnight couriered up from Brisbane it would take 3 to 4 days to arrive. $25 I think. I agreed to pay and then the next day I got a phone call telling me it wasn't a warranty repair as there was evidence of me running over a kangaroo. The part was a return to Mitsubishi part and the cost was over $500 after he took pity on me and reduced it. I mentioned that tMitsubishi advertised showing the Triton driving off-road and that kangaroos carcasses littering the outback Queensland roads was a common occurrence, and as such that encoder assembly should maybe be better protected. That afternoon I picked up the Triton and the bill was only for the courier. I queried it and the workshop foreman who happened to be in reception at the time verified that the repair was covered by warranty. So I hopped into the Triton, turned off my phone and didn't turn it on again until I was well on the way to Cooktown. Maybe the manager was trying one on for a gullible southerner, who knows?

Up at Cape York a plastic fitting on the driver door window broke and prevented the window from closing. I drove past Cairns and had it fixed in Townsville.

Dennis writes of "Wheel turning encoders and brakes", which I have never heard of, but I'd be more than surprised if these flash gadgets allow power to be transmitted to ALL 4 wheels at once. If not, the vehicle is NOT a 4wd. Bit  ambitious mentioning "Triton" and "4wd"  in the same sentence, too me thinks. Anyway, aside from that, I would be happy to have some knowledgeable person explain how these flash "encoders and brakes" gadgets work, but possibly about as useless as AWD. Cheers

You blokes are so far off topic I think you must be in Timbuktu smoking something.

 

oldbloke wrote:

 

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Lol, so the wheels are not going to fall off next week if you get an upgrade, that's true. 

 But additional loads and strain is applied to many parts. This could cause the life of parts to be shortened or just occassionally a catastrophic early failure. Is it 1/100 or 1/1000 who knows. The engineers are building in a safety factor and upgrades reduce that. Upgrades push the boundaries. 

 Plus, like you I would not like to drive a dray with concrete wheels. 

 Slightly off topic, forklifts have next to no suspension and are well known to be very hard on the spine.

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 Deleted

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 3rd of May 2022 09:45:07 PM

I will never be jealous of someone driving a car with the suspension of a bullocks dray. I like a pleasant ride.

Try just towing a van within the limits of the tow vehicle. But some find that too complicated.

Once again, like many times in the past you have taken a topic away from from the original subject matter and dragged it back to knocking WDHs.

This is your speciality.

That is because you have nothing else to offer. And most here know it.


That is why so many here dislike you. And the reason you are no longer on the other forum.

 

Eventually you will be removed from here also.

Aus-Kiwi wrote:

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Doesnt anyone have common sense these days ?

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 It's not as common as it once was.

jegog wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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Dennis writes of "Wheel turning encoders and brakes", which I have never heard of, but I'd be more than surprised if these flash gadgets allow power to be transmitted to ALL 4 wheels at once. If not, the vehicle is NOT a 4wd. Bit  ambitious mentioning "Triton" and "4wd"  in the same sentence, too me thinks. Anyway, aside from that, I would be happy to have some knowledgeable person explain how these flash "encoders and brakes" gadgets work, but possibly about as useless as AWD. Cheers

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 Watch this tube video for an explanation of the different technologies now used in todays 4wd vehicles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18YNpG7IAQ8

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Thanks Dennis. if I can find a bit of time later, I will have a look. Could be interesting! Cheers 

Just watched the You tube video that Dennis posted...

Really a must watch for any one new to 4wd'ing or has little understanding of what is actually going on beneath their feet.

What manufacturers are doing is removing as much of the voodoo as possible so the less mechanically inclined won't find them selves in bother due to lack of basic 4wd'ing or mechanical knowledge which is a good thing imo.

I've owned 4wd's over the years with all of the gizmo's explained in the video at some point. But the reality is for most people they will never need diff locks. AWD's will suffice for most when venturing on to firm dirt tracks plus offering some additional safety in wet and slippery conditions.
Though these vehicles are often banned from going on to a beach as they don't possess a torque distribution type transmission incorporating a low range option...so easily bog in the wrong hands.

The fact that the majority of 4wd's now come with a simple traction control system utilsing the existing ABS sensors at each wheel, as well often with an additional rear diff lock, negating the need to look for after market fixes and will get a motorist out of trouble 95% of the time.

With these systems the ESC or Electronic Stability Control must be switched off in sandy going as when it senses wheel spin, often in conjunction with a yaw sensor, thinks the vehicle might be going in to a slide, so not only will brake the spinning wheel but will also reduce power output by reducing throttle.

So when you need to increase power to overcome the braking force on the spinning wheel, the ESC system electronically forces a power reduction . Fine on a bitumen road but a disaster in soft sand.
If you forget to turn off the ESC you might wonder why the throttle goes a bit "doughy" and the engine won't accelerate as it should sometimes...that is the ESC at work...

yobarr wrote:

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Stewart wrote:

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I had a thought. What if the wdh was reversed. So chains hooked on to the tow shank and fixed to the caravan draw bar would the results be the same for towing. (nothing to do with mud). Cheers Stewart

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 Well, finally I found a bit of time to think about this! Sad news is that if the WDH was reversed, it would not work,AT ALL!  Will try to keep it simple so as not to confuse people, with help of photos below. With the HR WDH there is a solid "head" (1) bolted to the towbar shank, creating a solid base which the towball and the WDH trunions, solid bars, are attached to. These trunion bars are 28" to 30" long, and protrude beneath the van's drawbar, another solid bar. Between these two solid bars is a chain which is shortened, using a special lever, to bring the two solid bars closer together, thus transferring weight from the car's rear axle to both the car's front axle and the van's axle group. Amazingly simple, but ONLY possible because of the towball acting as a hinge, near the WDH head. First photo shows (1) the solid WDH head, the towball "hinge", and the  solid trunion bar under the drawbar, while (2) (still first photo) shows how it all is mounted to another solid bar, the drawbar. As can be seen,when the chain is tightened it obviously becomes shorter, and draws the two solid bars together, thanks to the hinge. (towball). NOW, let's somehow bolt the WDH head to the drawbar in place of the tensioning brackets, and then somehow mount the tensioning bracket near the towball. Looks good? Now,using the special lever, try to tension the WDH by shortening the chains! Can't be done, because there no longer is a hinge between the van's drawbar and the trunion bars, our original two solid bars. All we're now trying to do is draw two solidly mounted bars together, and it's impossible to do that without bending or breaking one or both bars. Can't be done. Took me a while to work through it all, but it is patently obvious when studied. Cheers

P.S The second picture shows one of the effects of the WDH putting downward force onto a drawbar, and confirms that a WDH increases the total weight of the van. Not negotiable. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 30th of April 2022 06:21:55 PM

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 I would never buy from a manufacturer who forgets to weld the A frame!