Why?

rgren2 · Guru

Why?

86GTS · Guru

Luckily we don't have that kind of thing in Oz.
The Yanks make their own bed, let them lay in it.
Nothing will ever change.
Tragic none the less.

Mike Harding · Guru

The blame is often attributed to lax gun laws but I believe this is far too simplistic an answer:

Gun laws in the USA have been, essentially, the same for 100 years or more yet, as far as I know, there were not regular "school shootings" or the like 20 and more years past. What I think is a major factor in someone, usually young and male, deciding to pick up a gun and kill strangers is the massive changes we have seen in Western society in recent decades. The demise of religion and community, the breakup of the family, the focus on the acquisition of wealth over all other things, widespread drug use plus the internet and (un)social media haven't helped either.

The above factors will generate a wide range of dysfunctional behaviour and resentment in, especially, boys and if they do not have a benign outlet for or support in understanding and controlling these feelings then a very small number will do terrible things.

Worry less about guns and more about generating supportive and caring communities whose first concern is not who can make the most money and buy the biggest car for that is not the path to satisfaction in life. We need to roll back some "progressive" changes.

Collo · Senior Member

Thank goodness John Howard had the balls to ban automatic and semi-automatic guns.

Why the US doesn't do something about their gun culture is a mystery. They seem to be willing to accept these killings time after time.

Collo.

Whenarewethere · Guru

Texas recently reduced the age that people can get assault weapons from 21 to 18.

Craig1 · Guru

Their " gun lobby " seems to have more power thatn their pollies

oldbloke · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
The blame is often attributed to lax gun laws but I believe this is far too simplistic an answer:
Gun laws in the USA have been, essentially, the same for 100 years or more yet, as far as I know, there were not regular "school shootings" or the like 20 and more years past. What I think is a major factor in someone, usually young and male, deciding to pick up a gun and kill strangers is the massive changes we have seen in Western society in recent decades. The demise of religion and community, the breakup of the family, the focus on the acquisition of wealth over all other things, widespread drug use plus the internet and (un)social media haven't helped either.
The above factors will generate a wide range of dysfunctional behaviour and resentment in, especially, boys and if they do not have a benign outlet for or support in understanding and controlling these feelings then a very small number will do terrible things.
Worry less about guns and more about generating supportive and caring communities whose first concern is not who can make the most money and buy the biggest car for that is not the path to satisfaction in life. We need to roll back some "progressive" changes.

Yes, in essence, primarily a social problem.

deverall11 · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
The blame is often attributed to lax gun laws but I believe this is far too simplistic an answer:
Gun laws in the USA have been, essentially, the same for 100 years or more yet, as far as I know, there were not regular "school shootings" or the like 20 and more years past. What I think is a major factor in someone, usually young and male, deciding to pick up a gun and kill strangers is the massive changes we have seen in Western society in recent decades. The demise of religion and community, the breakup of the family, the focus on the acquisition of wealth over all other things, widespread drug use plus the internet and (un)social media haven't helped either.
The above factors will generate a wide range of dysfunctional behaviour and resentment in, especially, boys and if they do not have a benign outlet for or support in understanding and controlling these feelings then a very small number will do terrible things.
Worry less about guns and more about generating supportive and caring communities whose first concern is not who can make the most money and buy the biggest car for that is not the path to satisfaction in life. We need to roll back some "progressive" changes.

Yes you have a point but at the end of the day, if they had same gun laws as here there would be a lot less.

It will take years if not decades before mental health issues are dealt with. In the meantime, remove the guns.

It wouldn't be that much different here if we had the same gun laws as in the US. John Howard, back in the days when pollies had

balls conviction and did not make getting re-elected their priority.

Gundog · Guru

Second Amendment

Second Amendment Explained

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

John Howard could not have banned guns in the way he did, because its not in our constitation.

So how do you explain the amount of gun related crimes including murder that have esculated in Australia over the recent years, where we have such excellent gun control.

-- Edited by Gundog on Wednesday 25th of May 2022 05:05:21 PM

peter67 · Guru

Spot on Gundog. I'm also in awe of the lead fast food outlets have taken in the community by introducing so much blunt plastic food cutlery into the food chain :)

Corndoggy · Senior Member

Mike, agree with most of what you said but not the demise of religion. Sounds like a statement from someone that believes in it. A non believer will be no more or less as bad, evil , deprived, criminal or killer that the believer standing beside him. Religions thought out history, and in current times have persecuted and killed others that do and don't believe the same or believe in alternative ways. They have killed plenty in the name of which ever you want to name. The same can be said for non believers against believers though. Its something that is used to try justifying or condem an action.

Mike Harding · Guru

Corndoggy wrote:
Mike, agree with most of what you said but not the demise of religion. Sounds like a statement from someone that believes in it.

No, I'm an atheist.

Religion, of course, has had its negatives over the years but it has many positive too; it creates and binds community, it provides an emotional and philosophical support mechanism for people who seek such things, it provides clear and firm rules regarding morality and right and wrong, it provides a friendly voice from a caring friend when life feels hard.

dorian · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
Texas recently reduced the age that people can get assault weapons from 21 to 18.

I'm in favour of banning all firearms, but this law is reasonable in that it removes a nonsensical age disparity. If you can kill and die for your country at the age of 18, then you should not be barred from doing anything that a 21-year-old is legally permitted to do. I'm reminded of a law in Bjelke-Peterson's Queensland which prevented an 18-year-old from buying a beer, even though he was old enough to die in Vietnam.

Whenarewethere · Guru

In Australia we are not allowed to have a laser more than 1mW. USA unlimited.

They have buying & selling laws but there are workarounds.

Hitting the road · Senior Member

The ongoing decay of the Family unit...mass shootings are not a totally new phenomenon sadly, and won't be disappearing any time soon. In fact as Society falls apart further I see things only getting worse.

Laws are far too lax now, these criminals know they can live out their fantasy and be punished with a room, bed and breakfast for a decade or so then back out in the street.

I may be old fashioned, but the old "an eye for an eye" should still apply to these crimes. How many of them would go out and shoot some one if they knew when they got caught they would face the same action?

It may be barbaric, it may be terribly unfair to some...but isn't the murder of your child or partner not only unthinkable, but terrible unfair too?

-- Edited by Hitting the road on Friday 27th of May 2022 11:19:21 AM

Mike Harding · Guru

Hitting the road wrote:
Laws are far too lax now, these criminals know they can live out their fantasy and be punished with a room, bed and breakfast for a decade or so then back out in the street.

I don't, for one instant, believe the people who perpetrate these terrible mass killings will be deterred by harsh punishments; indeed it is clear most of them seek their own death as a finale to the event.

Such people are so far removed from society that it has little or no meaning for them, they wish vengeance for society's failure to embrace and nourish them (as they see it), I think it unarguable that all such persons would be classified as psychiatrically ill.

People who tread such a fine line between sanity and madness have always been with us but my argument is that the recent (30 years maybe?) destruction of family and community we have permitted has totally alienated many of these people leaving them in a mental state where they feel so resentful for their exclusion they see no path forward for themselves and simply want revenge upon "society".

We need to revert to a society where people cared for their family and neighbours and such misfits were recognised early and supported and/or controlled before they did such terrible things.

A divorce rate at 50%, 95% of wealth owned by 1% of people, children of five performing sex acts in schools - who the hell could argue this is a positive and nurturing society we have created in the pursuit of wealth and instant gratification?

Don't worry too much about guns... fix the social problems instead.

Ivan 01 · Guru

Are We Lost · Guru

An appropriate cartoon to highlight one of the causes of increasing violence in our society. The constant input to young minds from games that focus on killing must have a desensitising effect on the players. From there it is less of a step to make it real than it used to be.

Also, I agree with Mike. It's not the guns that are the problem, but more the increasing tolerance of society to accept declining standards in social behaviour. As for banning assault rifles the statistics show they are used in only a very small percentage of killings in the US. The vast majority are homicides with handguns. If I lived in the US, I would want an assault rifle for protection.

While the US has the highest gun numbers, a few European countries and eleswhere have high numbers and we don't hear about their shooting rampages. Focus on the society isssue, not just the guns.

Corndoggy · Senior Member

Just seen a clip on the TV of Donald Wanker Trump. Basically he is condemning those that are wanting/speaking up for changes with gun control. He's saying politicians are using the shooting for their own polical purposes. They want to take away citizens rights. Maybe they do need to amend their constitution. Add into amendment 2 the right to mass murder anyone, anywhere, anytime. Lets face it. Its daily news, happens every day and things are not going to change there. Not when you have a previous President like Trump who's going to make a come back next election pushing the barrow of the NRA and all the rednecks.

Are We Lost · Guru

In Australia, we have had fairly tight gun laws for years, yet the criminals seem to have no problem getting them. So the laws only prevent the law abiding citizens from having them.

In the US where handguns are predominantly used, and with much higher crime rate than here, isn't it reaonable that law abiding citizens should be able to protect themselves? Sure, the legislation was established many years when society was very different, but I would not want to vote in anyone who would take away my ability to protect myself if I lived there.

Take a look at the violent crime rate in the US (noting the rapid increases in the last year). Criminals will always get the guns. And remember assault rifles are a tiny fraction of the homicides. Typically, handguns are used to commit most crimes, while rifles are used for protection.

US crime statistics

Would you want to protect yourself?

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
An appropriate cartoon to highlight one of the causes of increasing violence in our society. The constant input to young minds from games that focus on killing must have a desensitising effect on the players. From there it is less of a step to make it real than it used to be.

Also, I agree with Mike. It's not the guns that are the problem, but more the increasing tolerance of society to accept declining standards in social behaviour...

Although different studies have found different results to video games contributing to violence, the other things to look at are violence in movies and on TV. It amazes me that scenes can show people violently killing and torturing others but when a sex scene is shown, people are up in arms about it. Surely showing a loving sex scene is better for society than people killing others?

As life gets tougher for the majority then social behaviour gets worse. We are supposedly in a "cycle of misery" which breeds contempt of authority as well as the dissatisfaction of the political agenda.

We've seen with the most recent election that the primary votes have moved away from the two main political parties to the minority parties. This is a plea from the general population saying that we're not happy with the status quo and we want action on the policies of the minority parties. They are: climate change, federal government accountability, cost of living etcetera.

I can only see things getting worse whilst inequality is not addressed.

dorian · Guru

Man set alight as guns stolen in violent home invasion in High Wycombe in Perth's east:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-28/man-set-alight-guns-stolen-high-wycombe-home-invasion/101107844

A man is recovering in hospital with significant facial burns after being set alight during a home invasion in Perth's east.

Police say three armed men broke into the Petilia Court home in High Wycombe at about 9:40pm on Friday and stole four guns.

Mike Harding · Guru

dorian wrote:
Man set alight as guns stolen in violent home invasion in High Wycombe in Perth's east:

From the above article:

"[police] said the offenders poured the spirits over the 52-year-old victim's face to get him to open the safe, which he did, but then one of the offenders set him on fire anyway."

Although it is legal to own certain types of firearm in Australia they are not permitted for self defence - before being set alight one is supposed to call the police.

DMaxer · Guru

That is total tripe Mike. Self defence is self defence and is not qualified by only being able to use certain implements. If for example you used a banned weapon in the act of self defence then the defence does not fail. It may well be that the victim may face a charge of having a controlled weapon in their possession but the self defence aspect still stands.

Mike Harding · Guru

No it is not tripe Dmaxer.

I know what the law says in this area and I also know how that converts into practical reality in the courts and in the real world of being threatened.

And you may have been a bit quick off the mark responding; you'll note I said "they are not permitted for self defence" - I was referring to the "Genuine Reason" requirement of the firearms act which applies to members of the public.

Some reading on firearms law for you I think.

oldbloke · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
No it is not tripe Dmaxer.
I know what the law says in this area and I also know how that converts into practical reality in the courts and in the real world of being threatened.
And you may have been a bit quick off the mark responding; you'll note I said "they are not permitted for self defence" - I was referring to the "Genuine Reason" requirement of the firearms act which applies to members of the public.
Some reading on firearms law for you I think.

Mike is correct. And if you do use one for self defence you better have deep pockets for the QC your going to need. The first reaction by police is to arrest the firearm owner, even if he was attacked.

A classic example. ( there have been many others)

https://nationalshooting.org.au/nsc-scores-major-win-in-nt-self-defence-case/

And now they are after him again,, cops can be sore loosers,

https://nationalshooting.org.au/stabbing-hero-nt-cops-raid-rons-place-seize-vinegar-chilli-oil/

Phlipper · Senior Member

Total gun control is not possible anywhere, " premeditated " killings will always be possible by some who will access a variety weapons, probably via the black market. But limiting ownership of weapons, especially high powered automatics/handguns will go a long way in stopping mentally unstable persons gaining easy access to guns for spur of the moment angry reactions. Sadly it may also be that confused, angry, hormonal teenager running amok, taking Dads guns and committing carnage because life seems to be treating him unfairly at the time.

The best anyone could hope for is by banning/restricting gun ownership there will be less carnage...some lives saved is better than no lives saved

iana · Guru

When I was very much younger, I was a member of the deer stalkers assoc. I was told there to only have a bolt action 5 shot rifle, if you can't hit anything with two shots, give up shooting, & the rifle with the bolt removed was useless (Security). I see this as a part solution, only allow the ownership of bolt action rifles.

Mike Harding · Guru

Here's an item you may not see on Australian news outlets:

BBC: Woman shoots gunman

DMaxer · Guru

You cannot purchase a firearm and state the reason you are purchasing a firearm is for self defence. However, if you are in a position where your personal safety is threatened then the use of any object is justified if that is the only means by which you can defend yourself and it is commensurate to the threat you perceive.

Perhaps if you disagree with me then you can remind me again where you obtained your legal qualifications allowing you to be proficient with the advice. Quoting an article written by another unqualified person is hardly authoritative.