Now let’s all Analyse the Cause

Ivan 01 · Guru

Now let’s all Analyse the Cause

DMaxer · Guru

RE:

Ivan 01 · Guru

RE: Now let’s all Analyse the Cause

Whenarewethere · Guru

Doing some oxyacetylene welding under the caravan and the black water methane exploded and shit happens so to speak, or was it in the driver's seat.

86GTS · Guru

Caravan trys to hump Toyota tow vehicle. hmm

yobarr · Guru

Ivan 01 wrote:
DMaxer wrote:
The driver was stung by a bee or he swerved to miss a cat.
While he was waving at an oncoming driver of another caravan.

To put your mind at ease, Ivan, I will advise that the pictured car is not a decent tow vehicle, being a lightweight VDJ76R, with GVM of a miserable 3060kg and stupidly short wheelbase of 2730mm, from memory? Has a pretty good rear axle rating of 2180kg (?) though but owner shouldn't even THINK of towing anything more than a 3100kg ATM van, tops. Did you notice that the whole towhead fitting is missing from the van, there is only one safety chain (left) and that the van itself has not rolled? Little LC is waaay out of its depth here, while Ranger, Colorado, DMax are among the lightweights that would have done a better towing job because of their longer wheelbase. Please note that I'm not suggesting that ANY of these cars could safely tow that van as I believe that Lotus are quite heavy vans? Looked at one but steered away. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 23rd of August 2022 09:16:05 PM

Ivan 01 · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Ivan 01 wrote:
DMaxer wrote:
The driver was stung by a bee or he swerved to miss a cat.
While he was waving at an oncoming driver of another caravan.
To put your mind at ease, Ivan, I will advise that the car is nor a decent tow vehicle, being a lightweight VDJ76R, with GVM of a miserable 3000kg and stupidly short wheelbase of 2730mm, from memory? Shouldn't even THINK of towing anything more than a 3000kg ATM van. Did you notice that the whole towhead fitting is missing from the van, there is only one safety chain (left) and that the van itself has not rolled? Little LC is waaay out of its depth here, while Ranger, Colorado, DMax are among lightweights that would have done a better towing job because of their longer wheelbase. Please note that I'm not suggesting that ANY of these cars could safely tow that van as I believe that Lotus are quite heavy vans? Looked at one but steered away. Cheers.

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 23rd of August 2022 09:07:52 PM

Once again Yobarr we thank you for your advice.

You have made some very valid points.

However I am surprised you neglected to tell us how unstable that combination would become on a less than perfect road surface due to the rear track of the tow vehicle being almost 4 inches narrower than the front

Yes it appears that it has broken the coupling and the safety chain has been torn from the van and is lying at the rear of the tow vehicle, while the second chain appears to have remained connected to the van but has become detached from the vehicle.

I am so surprised that the operator has adopted your advice and did not even consider a WDH. Maybe he thought he didnt need one or maybe he has been reading this forum.

I was wrong as I thought I had read somewhere that the GVM of that vehicle was 3300 kg.

If it was as you say only 3000kg then the van with an ATM of 3490kg was really stretching the friendship between the van and the car.

BTW, what is the manufacturers recommendation for the use of a WDH on this vehicle when towing a trailer of that weight (assumed).

Corndoggy · Senior Member

Its an add for Lotus Caravans. Look how well it stood up to an accident like that. That's how you build a caravan.

yobarr · Guru

Corndoggy wrote:
Its an add for Lotus Caravans. Look how well it stood up to an accident like that. That's how you build a caravan.

Strange that the little car has rolled at least once, but the van has stayed on its wheels? Did the tyre come off the rim before the car rolled? Mud up past door handles suggests car was possibly travelling at a decent clip when it went RSup? What is the "U" shaped bit of gear on the towbar of the car? Did the van become unattached from the car when the drawbar broke and then start flinging the car from side to side, and then upside down, because it was heavier than the car? The car's skid marks seem to come from the bottom of the first picture while the caravan's skid marks appear to come from the top of the same picture? Hmmm. Very strange. Cheers

P.S Corndoggy . Perhaps the Lotus "stood up to an accident like that" because it didn't roll over! Something doesn't add-up here.

Corndoggy · Senior Member

Must of been using rated d shackles. One on the caravan chain is still intact and same for the chain on the car. Didnt get them from Bunnings.

yobarr · Guru

Corndoggy wrote:
Must of been using rated d shackles. One on the caravan chain is still intact and same for the chain on the car. Didnt get them from Bunnings.

Van's way too big for that little short-wheelbase car. Cheers

DMaxer · Guru

RE:

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Now let’s all Analyse the Cause

aussiebottlo · Veteran Member

Yobarr once again googles and picks the first bit of information he finds, the pictured van is a different size (800mm shorter) and considerably lighter than the specs highlighted.

fr

dogbox · Guru

yobarr wrote:

Corndoggy wrote:
Must of been using rated d shackles. One on the caravan chain is still intact and same for the chain on the car. Didnt get them from Bunnings.
Van's way too big for that little short-wheelbase car. Cheers

my eyes may be deceiving me but i looks like the van is a trooper 18'6 not a 21'

from other information on this incident the driver was reported to be travelling to fast for conditions, lost control after hitting pot hole ???

KJB · Guru

Something that I believe is often not considered by caravanners (particularly someone new to towing...)

The "high centre of gravity" of "off road" style caravans together with high clearance "off road" suspension kits fitted to many Tow vehicles generally detracts from the handling of the whole Rig at normal road speeds no matter what the surface/road conditions are like. Example - safe cornering speeds are lower (especially on undulating ,sweeping bends - of which country Australia has plenty) KB

Gundog · Guru

Just a couple of obeservations

At some stage of the event the tyre has rolled off the rim.

It appears its a DO35 coupling that has snapped or sheered off at the yoke.

The safety chain still attached to the van has the shackle intact, has it torn off the towbar, and the saftey chain still attached to the towbar looks as though its torn off the A frame.

Is this a rare event where the rotation off the tow vehicle while the caravan remains on its wheels, with the safety chains wrapping around coupling causing the yoke to sheer off from the shaft of the DO35.?

dorian · Guru

Two more pics ...

https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/300396387_178490158052867_6466367446999374805_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=KmQqxyzQB3MAX_tJ70V&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=00_AT8wg3wOpW5ICc-42X9eecReSg0aAkvoEQEc98Mndo9eHg&oe=630A857E

https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/300387172_178490134719536_2662820165357695371_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=8CBIXkasPjQAX9_y2aA&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=00_AT_wo-6Z1TmmmLhfubAFN_Fpin6i8oeXbiJmNabFkC4bFw&oe=6309E239

https://business.facebook.com/pg/murraybridgecaravancentre/posts/?ref=page_internal

"Riverland Towing

19 August at 23:33

Met a very lucky couple today. They said I could post these pictures. They rolled their car on the lindsay point road and the caravan landed ontop of the car. They walked away with a broken finger. Thanks for the help from the boys at cmv farms, legend"

yobarr · Guru

aussiebottlo wrote:
Yobarr once again googles and picks the first bit of information he finds, the pictured van is a different size (800mm shorter) and considerably lighter than the specs highlighted.

Thanks John, for pointing out my mistake. Although I am not flash at estimating van lengths, when I Googled "Lotus Trooper" the supplied details appeared. However, seems to make little difference as a couple of caravan sales places have supplied the details below for your perusal. Only someone with little understanding of dynamics would hook such a heavy van to a lightweight car that has a really short wheelbase. All the popular lightweight twin-cab utes have much longer wheelbases, and are therefore inherently more stable. The facts that I supply in good faith may not be what some may want to hear, but all I can say is "Don't shoot the messenger". Cheers

fr

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

KJB wrote:
Something that I believe is often not considered by caravanners (particularly someone new to towing...)
The "high centre of gravity" of "off road" style caravans together with high clearance "off road" suspension kits fitted to many Tow vehicles generally detracts from the handling of the whole Rig at normal road speeds no matter what the surface/road conditions are like. Example - safe cornering speeds are lower (especially on undulating ,sweeping bends - of which country Australia has plenty) KB

Hi KB

You are correct.

A close look at the hitch on the car shows that it has a receiver that is set up to raise the tow ball to the height of the drawbar.

I am surprised that the caravan didnt drive itself deep into the rear doors of the Tojo.

It was probably saved by the strength of the safety chains even though they did break their mountings as the car rolled.

If it were me, I think I would rather the van roll and the car stay upright.

There has been a lot of talk regarding the basic safety of having a D0 35 but not many of us have realised that the safety chains actually work against the theory of the hitch rotating without tipping the towing vehicle.

The occupants were lucky with the female only suffering a broken finger, apart from the stupidity of the choice of mismatched vehicle and van.

The thought did come to me in as much as I wondered wether the D035 was actually a genuine unit or one that comes from China.

Surely a manufacturer of new vans would not cut corners to that extent.

It warrants a close look from the assessors.

-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Wednesday 24th of August 2022 11:42:02 AM

DMaxer · Guru

I think the saying is "water off a duck's back" Doug.

Gundog · Guru

Clarky 1 wrote:

It was probably saved by the strength of the safety chains even though they did break their mountings as the car rolled.
There has been a lot of talk regarding the basic safety of having a D0 35 but not many of us have realised that the safety chains actually work against the theory of the hitch rotating without tipping the towing vehicle.
These rotating style of hitch would have even a greater rotation retarder effect if the safety chains were correctly setup, seeing many vans with these type of hitches the chains are almost dragging on the ground, even when crossed there would be little chance of chains capturing the A frame in the event of disconnection.

Mike196 · Senior Member

Apart from anything else they're very lucky people, but unfortunately have learned a lesson the hard way. But for the grace of God, there goes you or I.

watsea · Guru

What is in the front box on the A frame, not air I bet? What about the two big spare wheels on the back of the van? Seen in Dorian's pics. What was on the roof rack of the LC?
All contributing to instability of the van and rig.

Greg 1 · Guru

I don't think that we can read anything into the fact that the DO35 hitch has broken or the chains have ripped off.
The forces at play in an accident of this type are enormous and have obviously exceeded the design limits of both chain and hitch. I doubt very much whether any 3500kg hitch would have survived this.

Being facetious, maybe it was tow ball overhang?

(Gregory, stop being naughty and stirring the pot.)

Southern Cruizer · Guru

And like Facebook everyone is guessing without knowing exactly what happened. Only the driver and passenger would possibly be able to give some insight to possible cause.
Believe there was only an older couple in the vehicle if you can believe the reports we get to see or hear about

yobarr · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
I don't think that we can read anything into the fact that the DO35 hitch has broken or the chains have ripped off.
The forces at play in an accident of this type are enormous and have obviously exceeded the design limits of both chain and hitch. I doubt very much whether any 3500kg hitch would have survived this.

Being facetious, maybe it was tow ball overhang?

(Gregory, stop being naughty and stirring the pot.)

Nice one Greg! Whilst the TBO here is OK, it becomes dangerous only because it is more than 50% of the stupidly short wheelbase. With a roof-rack full of stuff, a van with greater forward length than most (towball weight) and a lightweight car this combination is/was an accident looking for a place to happen. Greater forward length with lower weights is fine. Although unlikely, perhaps these pictures will help others to understand the stupidity of towing a heavy van with a light car, particularly a car with such a short wheelbase. As Watsea has pointed out, two heavy spares and a jerry can on the rear bumper, along with huge tool boxes on the 'A' frame are unlikely to have helped. Who was it who asked "When will they ever learn"? Cheers

oldbloke · Guru

I'm back. biggrin confuse God knows why.

My take on the accident. (with a few quotes from above)Just glad to hear no serious injuries. Another holiday/retirement ruined.

1. "There has been a lot of talk regarding the basic safety of having a D0 35" Yep, that's a problem. You just can't beat the time proven ball.

2. "Must of been using rated d shackles. One on the caravan chain is still intact and same for the chain on the car." I think that's correct too.

3. "The "high centre of gravity" of "off road" style caravans together with high clearance "off road" suspension kits fitted to many Tow vehicles generally detracts from the handling of the whole Rig at normal road speeds no matter what the surface/road conditions are like. Agree whole heartily. Just a marketing con. Fundamentally less stable. IMO

4. "Little LC is waaay out of its depth here," AGREE There's a problem for starters. Probably had some sort of up-grade in an attempt to make it do what it was never intended by the maker. A Toyota issue along with weights,,,. Best not to buy one of those. Junk.

5. AND. Obviously NO WDH There's a huge problem!

6. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY "Only the driver and passenger would possibly be able to give some insight to possible cause." Very, very true.. We only have a few pics. Nothing else. We did not see it happen and we are only guessing. Who knows, a bull may have walked out in front of them at 2am. It's happened to me . But I got lucky and stopped in time.

OB ;) Gone again.

oldbloke · Guru

Dougwe wrote:
You couldn't help yourself could you Yobbo! You just had to bring weights into it. It's about time you gave it a rest and disappeared.

My apologies to everyone else as I am not normally bitter but I am over this bloke. Like many others here.

Keep Safe out there.

I'm back. God knows why. confuse

I agree 200% Doug. Unfortunately it seems he is here for the long haul. That's because nobody here has the balls to take decisive action.

OB ;) Gone again.

Greg 1 · Guru

I agree with most of your points oldbloke with the exception of number 1.

Standard towballs have certainly had a history of parting company with the tow bar tongue in accidents of this type. They are known for flying through windscreens too when a snatch strap has been attached to them in vehicle recoveries as that is well beyond their design limits.

The D035 is a good hitch system, but I think that it and the chains were subjected to forces well beyond what they could ever be expected to withstand in normal circumstances and I really don't believe a standard ball or any other hitch on the market for that matter, would have faired any better.

By the way, I am not using a D035 so don't have a vested interest in that product but have used one in the past. I currently use a McHitch auto loader which I am rather taken with but I don't believe that would have done any better.