I was taught 9 to 3 from an advanced driving course.

The knob comment was a little humour. Please dont have your hand on any knob while steering.> Yobarr.  
 From my observations most truckies steer with the right arm and have the left ready for changing gears if required, and if in a RHD vehicle.

Hold it (the wheel) however you like. There was a bloke on one of those reality highway patrol tv shows, steering a car with a pair of vice grips clamped to the steering column shaft onto the spline where the wheel normally fits.

The old rule of 10 to 2 was difficult at times.

Does anyone ever remember the old XK Falcons with a 5 and 3/4 turns lock to lock or even the old *racing* Vanguard was pretty indirect as well.

It certainly paid you to have the car in the correct gear before you started a turning manoeuvre. 

-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Friday 23rd of December 2022 01:57:20 PM

Greg 1 wrote:

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As someone who has been a driving instructor, taught advanced driving  and raced cars as a hobby including taking instruction from some very experienced ex touring car drivers, you never ever drive with your hands at 20 to 4.  10 to 2 or 9 and 3 are the two correct positions to maintain proper control of the car. Anyone teaching otherwise isn't a drivers fundamental. In a race car the 9 and 3 position is preferred or just slightly above. It is frowned upon by good racing driver instructors to drive one handed and very few do. Change gear, hand back on wheel until next gear change. At high corner speeds and quick racks you need both hands on the wheel to muscle the car around the corner. Whilst most people will never drive at the speeds reached on a race track, the fundamental things that make for good car control on the track, translate straight across to driving our road cars. I would like to see more people take the opportunity to take some advanced instruction on a race track because I believe it makes for better drivers, both in skill and attitude.

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 Great post Greg! Lots of logic, common sense  and  indisputable facts displayed here, gathered, no doubt, over your years of involvement in motor racing and advanced driving. When I started this thread my intention was merely to draw attention to what I see as a concerning trend for drivers to hold the steering wheel at the 20 to 4 position, but I was most careful to not offer any advice! Seems that some members still took my post as a challenge to their preferred manner of "driving". Holding a driver's licence does not necessarily make you a driver.

At the 20 to 4 position the driver has absolutely NO control of the car, and the hands are being held in an unnatural position. Have you ever seen anybody sitting with their hands in the palms-up  position that holding the steering wheel at 20 to 4 requires? 

As far as Advanced Driving courses go, it doesn't matter how many courses you complete, if you can't drive, you can't drive.  Whilst I have completed such a course, most "feel" for the car comes, as well-respected racing driver Jim Richards says, "through the seat of your pants" and can never be taught. 

Whilst I quickly recognised that Ivan's introduction of knobs into the conversation was a light-hearted attempt to add a little humour to the thread I chose not to respond, as I had no wish to "steal his thunder" by intruding into an area in which Ivan seems to have great knowledge. Cheers.

yobarr wrote:

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Greg 1 wrote:

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As someone who has been a driving instructor, taught advanced driving  and raced cars as a hobby including taking instruction from some very experienced ex touring car drivers, you never ever drive with your hands at 20 to 4.  10 to 2 or 9 and 3 are the two correct positions to maintain proper control of the car. Anyone teaching otherwise isn't a drivers fundamental. In a race car the 9 and 3 position is preferred or just slightly above. It is frowned upon by good racing driver instructors to drive one handed and very few do. Change gear, hand back on wheel until next gear change. At high corner speeds and quick racks you need both hands on the wheel to muscle the car around the corner. Whilst most people will never drive at the speeds reached on a race track, the fundamental things that make for good car control on the track, translate straight across to driving our road cars. I would like to see more people take the opportunity to take some advanced instruction on a race track because I believe it makes for better drivers, both in skill and attitude.

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 Great post Greg! Lots of logic, common sense  and  indisputable facts displayed here, gathered, no doubt, over your years of involvement in motor racing and advanced driving. When I started this thread my intention was merely to draw attention to what I see as a concerning trend for drivers to hold the steering wheel at the 20 to 4 position, but I was most careful to not offer any advice! Seems that some members still took my post as a challenge to their preferred manner of "driving". Holding a driver's licence does not necessarily make you a driver.

At the 20 to 4 position the driver has absolutely NO control of the car, and the hands are being held in an unnatural position. Have you ever seen anybody sitting with their hands in the palms-up  position that holding the steering wheel at 20 to 4 requires? 

As far as Advanced Driving courses go, it doesn't matter how many courses you complete, if you can't drive, you can't drive.  Whilst I have completed such a course, most "feel" for the car comes, as well-respected racing driver Jim Richards says, "through the seat of your pants" and can never be taught. 

Whilst I quickly recognised that Ivan's introduction of knobs into the conversation was a light-hearted attempt to add a little humour to the thread I chose not to respond, as I had no wish to "steal his thunder" by intruding into an area in which Ivan seems to have great knowledge. Cheers.

 

 

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 25th of December 2022 05:47:21 PM

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 At last Yobarr, a little humour and satire into your post. Well done mate.

if we go back a long way and read your comments it appears to many that you are a very good owner operator of a knob.  

Have a Safe and Happy New Year.

Ivan 01 wrote:

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 At last Yobarr, a little humour and satire into your post. Well done mate.

if we go back a long way and read your comments it appears to many that you are a very good owner operator of a knob.  

Have a Safe and Happy New Year.

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 Perhaps you're right, Ivan? After all, what right do  I have to dispute the assertions of an apparent expert in the field! Have a great day, and I wish you only the best for the New Year. Cheers

P.S Perhaps you could advise how you were able to determine that "it appears to many". 

watsea wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

 

As far as Advanced Driving courses go, it doesn't matter how many courses you complete, if you can't drive, you can't drive.  Whilst I have completed such a course, most "feel" for the car comes, as well-respected racing driver Jim Richards says, "through the seat of your pants" and can never be taught. 

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 25th of December 2022 05:47:21 PM

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 I wonder if anyone remembers Peter Wherrett.  On one of his shows, he tried to find and show where drivers got their most sensation for driving control.

He wore a helmet with a visor that opened and closed at a regular frequency so he only had vision for about half of the time.  Then driver's seat was moved randomly (sideways, back and forward, maybe rotational) by a motorised controller.  He found and demonstrated that he could control his car less when the seat was moved or moving ie better control feeling through the seat of the pants.   The brain could cope with the intermittent vision disruptions.

As for hand positions, I normanly drive at 10 to 2, or closer to 9 to 3. The steering wheel spokes hinder going full 9 to 3.  I had not heard of 20 to 4 until reading this thread.  I had a short try out.  Quite uncomfortable for me and seemingly with lack of room to control the steering wheel.  I realise decades of muscle training via my driving would also had an impact, but 20 to 4 is not for me.

Once with a work colleague (my boss), I was a bit concerned.  He used his thumb and two fingers in the 6 o'clock position, one handed of course.

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Interesting post, Ted! Great to see that Peter Wherrett agrees with the great Jim Richards, and what tgey both say is coincidentally exactly what I worked out for myself waaay back, late 60s and early 70s, when I used to absolutely love driving sideways on dirt roads, at well over 160kmh, with my mother sitting beside me!

And could I say that because driving a car with hands at 20 to 4 means that the driver has NO proper control of the car the practice should be actively discouraged, and result in a "fail" when sitting a test to gain a driver's licence.

The fact that driving schools teach this method is absolutely ridiculous, and the practice should be banned.

And we wonder why kids these days can't drive! Modern cars have 2 to 3 times more power than ours had, but the drivers are much less skilled, simply because they have been incorrectly taught, and have never been able to learn proper car control.

"Do gooders" have decided that anybody who drives a car sideways is a "Hoon", so it is difficult for kids to learn. Cheers

Try this with hands at 20 to 4, and see where you end up. Cheers

P.S Bottom picture is of Jim Richards! Anglia in a field dominated by Mini Cooper Ss. He also raced a Hillman Imp (true) He was aged 21 when this phot was taken. Cheers

Mike Harding wrote:

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About 10 years past, in Victoria, I was involved with an excellent volunteer programme which provided free "L plate" supervision for youngsters who did not have access to a car/driver in their home environment. We volunteers were, properly, required to do a fair bit of training and testing to ensure we were fit and proper people to be let loose with a 16 year old in a car (I must have slipped through the net :) ).

One day I was chatting with a senior government person running the programme and mentioned how I had been unable to find a publicly accessible skid pan for my sons to use when I was teaching them to drive as I consider the best way to learn things such as skid control is in a controlled and safe teaching environment rather than at 2.30am on the freeway at 100kph in a heavy rainstorm.

"Oh, no, no, no" was the reply, "we very much discourage such traing " as it only encourages people to do these things on the road." And I have heard this response from official sources since, indeed I even recall an article in the RACV magazine by the then head of the RACV espousing the same opinion.

Perhaps this is a strategy we should apply to airline pilots? ie. Don't teach them emergency aircraft control in case it leads them to be reckless?

Driving, just like tennis or darts, is a skill and it will be improved by practice, tuition and learning. 

Driver skill levels in Australia are appalling and attitudes and approaches such as the above are part of the reason why.

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        Hi Mike. Once again you have posted what I believe is common sense, but your views sadly are not shared by the two individuals I've highlighted above.

       Again we have such people in these jobs simply because  they're too stupid to get a real job.

       It is apparent that common sense is becoming increasingly uncommon.Cheers