McHitch is Finished

mike g g · Senior Member

RE: McHitch is Finished

yobarr · Guru

mike g g wrote:
Mchitch what a great aussie product ,if weights a problem then maybe you are carrying to much ,I've had my mchitch for years now best thing ever smooth riding easy to hook up,and don't have to worry about tight turns etc,hope some other aussie company takes it up .

Hi Mike. Great to see that you're another adoring fan of the McHitch system, but please note that there is NO way that you can dispute that a McHitch increases TBO. This increase in TBO results in multiplication of the weight applied to a car's rear axle by the towball weight, as well as increasing the effects of yaw, one of the biggest causes of caravan accidents. Sad, inconvenient truth, but indesputable. Cheers

P.S Better internet today, so I have been able to supply a bigger picture to illustrate my point.

jegog · Senior Member

50mm ball vs DO35 vs McHitch. They all do the job they were designed to do. If one was superior to the others then an experienced driver should be able to know, just by driving, and not eyeballing which was being used. And I very much doubt if there is anybody capable of doing that.
The claim that a McHitch increases tow ball weight is laughable.
Tow ball weight is a n attribute of the trailer and has nothing to do whatever with the tow vehicle.
Also the claim that the McHitch multiplies the weight applied to the tow vehicle's back axle is misleading any best.
The tow vehicle has a certain overall weight which is distributed to the front and back axles.
The portion on each axle is determined by where the tow vehicle's centre of gravity is located.
As load is added to the vehicle( driver, passengers, luggage, fuel, etc), the centre of gravity moves resulting in changing axle weights. The same is true when a trailer is coupled to the tow ball.
All that happens is the total mass of the tow vehicle is increased by the tow ball weight, and the centre of gravity moves towards the back axle.
How far the centre of gravity moves is determined by the distance between the tow ball and the centre of gravity measured before the tow ball weight is applied.
The further from the centre of gravity that the tow ball is, the further that the new centre of gravity will move towards the back axle.
Using tow ball overhang is not the measurement to be used here as it is a constant and does not change when the tow vehicle load is changed.
As for the McHitch increasing the prospect of sway, maybe, but pretty much immeasurable.
The dynamics of sway are complicated.
When yaw happens the yaw pivots about the vehicle's centre of mass. This is true for the tow vehicle, the trailer and the combined tow vehicle and coupled trailer.
My gut feeling is that when the combined centre of mass is well forward of the coupling point that they are most stable. And that they become more unstable as the combined centre of mass approaches the tow ball.
The tow vehicle and the trailer pivot on their own centre of mass as does the combined vehicle and trailer. Each have their own oscillation frequency and amplitude.
Anyway these are just my thoughts on these matters.
I have used a mcHitch, but the dropdown hitch, which I think is better than any of the above.

yobarr · Guru

Dennis, I don't know if you're being mischievous, or you simply don't understand, but much of what you've written is incorrect. Nowhere has anybody said that a McHitch increases towball weight. You seem lost. Today I am driving so will probably not be able to reply. Maybe tomorrow. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 25th of January 2023 08:08:05 PM

jegog · Senior Member

Yobar, in a post posted on Jan 12 4:37 PM, 2023 you wrote

" And most importantly, the physics of a DO35 have no effect on towball weight, whereas the McHitch will substantially increase TBW. Cheers.

P.S Sorry about siz e of pictures but poor internet service here."

Possum3 · Guru

TBO = Tow Ball Overhang = Leverage, Not Mass.

Ivan 01 · Guru

With the McHitch coupling the *leverage* caused by an increased *TBO* by its design was a little more difficult to fit a *WDH* than with many other tow bar couplings.
As jegog explained the *Centre of Gravity* of the tow vehicle is moved more toward the rear axle by having any tow coupling exhibiting more overhang or by having the distance from the centreline of the rear axle assembly to the tow ball or pivot, increased.

By the installation of a WDH this centre of gravity will be moved back more toward the front axle. This replaces some of the *MASS* back onto the front axle of the vehicle and removes some *MASS* from the rear axle, a fact which is easily proved on a weighbridge.

As Yobarr has said on many occasions a 79 series magically doesnt have the *TBO* of many other vehicles but in real fact when fitted with standard Toyota towing equipment, it does.
In some cases this *TBO* can be greater or longer than some other vehicles. (Rob was doing an exercise on *TBO* on the 79 series before his departure)

The 79 series suffers the same change in the *Centre Of Gravity* as does any other vehicle when connected to a pig trailer.
Toyota offer a WDH kit for the 79 to assist with this phenomenon.

As indicated by a picture posted by Yobarr above, the *TBO* can be changed on many vehicles with a tray body but the main disadvantage is to have to climb under the vehicle at the rear to connect a trailer.

In this case under the tray body with the shortened and modified draw bar and tow bar receiver, the McHitch might have been an advantage in the process of hooking up as the coupling did not have to be dropped on over a ball or pin but more just connected in one horizontal movement.
Unfortunately though, the procedure to connect the *WDH* on the McHitch while having to get under the tray body may have been more difficult.
So this is really just another decision as to what will be the right horse for the course.

Some may ask so what is my point. Well the McHitch could be an advantage in some installations.

After my opening post I have done a basic search to see if there is a reason for their closure and at this stage all I see as that it was *due to unseen circumstances*

Whatever the case I wish the company founders and staff all the best with the closure and any new ventures if in the plans.

yobarr · Guru

jegog wrote:
50mm ball vs DO35 vs McHitch. They all do the job they were designed to do. If one was superior to the others then an experienced driver should be able to know, just by driving, and not eyeballing which was being used. And I very much doubt if there is anybody capable of doing that.
The claim that a McHitch increases tow ball weight is laughable.
Tow ball weight is a n attribute of the trailer and has nothing to do whatever with the tow vehicle.
Also the claim that the McHitch multiplies the weight applied to the tow vehicle's back axle is misleading any best.
The tow vehicle has a certain overall weight which is distributed to the front and back axles.
The portion on each axle is determined by where the tow vehicle's centre of gravity is located.
As load is added to the vehicle( driver, passengers, luggage, fuel, etc), the centre of gravity moves resulting in changing axle weights. The same is true when a trailer is coupled to the tow ball.
All that happens is the total mass of the tow vehicle is increased by the tow ball weight, and the centre of gravity moves towards the back axle.
How far the centre of gravity moves is determined by the distance between the tow ball and the centre of gravity measured before the tow ball weight is applied.
The further from the centre of gravity that the tow ball is, the further that the new centre of gravity will move towards the back axle.
Using tow ball overhang is not the measurement to be used here as it is a constant and does not change when the tow vehicle load is changed.
As for the McHitch increasing the prospect of sway, maybe, but pretty much immeasurable.
The dynamics of sway are complicated.
When yaw happens the yaw pivots about the vehicle's centre of mass. This is true for the tow vehicle, the trailer and the combined tow vehicle and coupled trailer.
My gut feeling is that when the combined centre of mass is well forward of the coupling point that they are most stable. And that they become more unstable as the combined centre of mass approaches the tow ball.
The tow vehicle and the trailer pivot on their own centre of mass as does the combined vehicle and trailer. Each have their own oscillation frequency and amplitude.
Anyway these are just my thoughts on these matters.
I have used a mcHitch, but the dropdown hitch, which I think is better than any of the above.

Hi Dennis. Because I am working long hours, but still trying to contribute here, I made a slight mistake with my sentence "McHitch will substantially increase towball weight". If you paid as much attention to ALL my posts on the effects of using a McHitch as you did to this one you would realise what I intended to convey was that " McHitch will substantially increase the effects of towball weight". This I have written dozens of times over the years to help people understand the physics. Sorry to confuse you, but a McHitch multiplies the towball weight's effect on rear axle weight.

There are two primary things that affect how much weight a towball applies to the rear axle of a car. The main one, obviously, is towball overhang, but of equal importnace is the wheelbase of the car. This is where Ivan's good friend Rob was confused, with his attempts to denigrate a certain vehicle being meaningless, as the vehicle he was comparing it with has a wheelbase a HUGE 330mm shorter than the vehicle he was denigrating. No contest. Hope this clears things up for you, but if you have any queries please feel free to ask. When it comes to weights I do know what I'm talking about, and always I'm happy to help. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 27th of January 2023 05:33:29 AM

yobarr · Guru

Ivan 01 wrote:
With the McHitch coupling the *leverage* caused by an increased *TBO* by its design was a little more difficult to fit a *WDH* than with many other tow bar couplings.
As jegog explained the *Centre of Gravity* of the tow vehicle is moved more toward the rear axle by having any tow coupling exhibiting more overhang or by having the distance from the centreline of the rear axle assembly to the tow ball or pivot, increased.

By the installation of a WDH this centre of gravity will be moved back more toward the front axle. This replaces some of the *MASS* back onto the front axle of the vehicle and removes some *MASS* from the rear axle, a fact which is easily proved on a weighbridge.
It also moves weight to your van's axle group, a point that I first made 5 years(?) ago, causing many, including your good friend Rob, and a couple of other well-respected members to hurl all sorts of abuse at me. After my detailed explanation of the physics involved eventually they realised that a WDH DOES indeed increase total weight of van. (ATM if you like)

As Yobarr has said on many occasions a 79 series magically doesnt have the *TBO* of many other vehicles but in real fact when fitted with standard Toyota towing equipment, it does.
In some cases this *TBO* can be greater or longer than some other vehicles. (Rob was doing an exercise on *TBO* on the 79 series before his departure)
What both you and Rob don't seem to realise is that two vehicles with the same TBO can have vastly different weights applied to their rear axles depending on their respective wheelbases. My car has a 3180mm wheelbase while Rob's has a ridiculously short 2850mm wheelbase, as well as a huge tare weight. No comparison.
The 79 series suffers the same change in the *Centre Of Gravity* as does any other vehicle when connected to a pig trailer.
Toyota offer a WDH kit for the 79 to assist with this phenomenon.

As indicated by a picture posted by Yobarr above, the *TBO* can be changed on many vehicles with a tray body but the main disadvantage is to have to climb under the vehicle at the rear to connect a trailer.
Ivan, previously I have explained to you that my car has 880mm clearance under the tray. How much room do you want? There is absolutely no need to get under the tray to connect the van to the DO35 mount. Once it's been lowered, by jockey wheel, onto the pin there's a quick press of the button that releases the catch, and job's done! Some people are happy to use a couple of hooks for safety chains, but I discarded mine, and now use simple shackles. Easy as!

In this case under the tray body with the shortened and modified drawbar and towbar receiver the McHitch might have been an advantage in the process of hooking up as the coupling did not have to be dropped on over a ball or pin but more just connected in one horizontal movement.
The towbar receiver is as it left the factory. "Modified drawbar" I do not understand, or are you meaning the shank? My shank was specially built not to get the towing connection closer to the car, but simply to get it at the right height to prevent one van axle carrying more weight than the other. My van has independent suspension, but not load sharing, so it is critical that the chassis be level and that axle weights be as close as possible to equal. You no doubt know that, with this suspension arrangement it is important to run 3-4psi less in the lead axle of the van than is in the rear axle. Cheers
Unfortunately though, the procedure to connect the *WDH* on the McHitch while having to get under the tray body may have been more difficult.
So this is really just another decision as to what will be the right horse for the course.

Some may ask so what is my point. Well the McHitch could be an advantage in some installations.
The only time a McHitch is "an advantage" is if the trailer being towed is a lighter model which will not adversely affect the car's rear axle weight, or the driver has physical limitations. However, he still has to raise and lower the jockey wheel.

After my opening post I have done a basic search to see if there is a reason for their closure and at this stage all I see as that it was *due to unseen circumstances*
A friend will likely have the "inside story" so I'll catch up with him when I get to Sydney next week.

Whatever the case I wish the company founders and staff all the best with the closure and any new ventures if in the plans.

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 27th of January 2023 05:24:15 AM

Ivan 01 · Guru

While the continual ramblings and criticism of any brand of equipment other than the authors choice have worn so thin on this forum that almost all members who would be happy to contribute have now departed for what appears to be a permanent spot on another forum those remaining and any new members still are forced to endure the diatribe.

There has been so many variations of transport theory that it would be very difficult to get it right time after time.
In the above rantings there has been some very obvious mistakes.

To point out one this was stated:

There are two PRIMARY things that affect how much weight a towball applies to the rear axle of a car. The main one, obviously, is towball overhang, but of equal importnace is the wheelbase of the car. This is where Ivan's good friend Rob was confused,

Most would know that although overhang can pose an increase to the weight to the rear axle the main factor affecting how much mass is transferred is the mass applied to the tow bar by the loaded weight or mass of the caravan. While the wheelbase changes the fulcrum length from the front axle to the tow ball it is of very little significance to the COG of the vehicle unless a weight or mass is applied to the tow bar.
Cast your mind back to the exercise in the USA where a fellow drove a Front Wheel Drive vehicle connected to a caravan with a WDH and to prove that the mass is moved from the towball both forward and aft he removed the rear wheels from the car and still drove it around.

The argument of the WDH transferring the mass from the tow ball back onto the vehicle to move the COG toward the front and at the same time removing mass from the rear axle and distributing it onto the front axle of the car and the vans axle group is actually something that Rob, myself and several others have shown you with weigh bridge practical examples over and over again.

I vividly remember your claim that the mass on the tow ball doesnt change but by some magical wave of the weigh bridge operators wand the mass increases on the front axle and the vans axle when the WDH is connected.

A continual rant that all who provide theory with practical confirmation are wrong and you are correct based solely on the fact that you need to try to prove that your choice of the 79 series and all of its ancillary equipment is the only vehicle we all should be using is bazarr and becoming very boring.

Considering that Rob can not defend or counter claim anything that is said about him is disappointing. Rob had more knowledge of transport equipment and engineering than most on here.

-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Friday 27th of January 2023 08:39:49 AM

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Morning Ivan,

I find it so annoying that the resident Xspurt prattles on and on about the same old things day in day out. McHitches and WDH's. Oh! Weights too.

I have come across hundreds if not thousands of people with a McHitch in my travels or long stays in various locations and every single one of those people are more than happy with them. Not one person has had a negative comment about the McHitch. There are thousands of McHitches out there so they can't be that bad.

In fact, I was about to change to one myself but then found out they have now ridden on ahead. I had enough when my aluminium tent builder went belly up only 12 months after I got it. I won't get caught again so the 50mm ball hitch can stay. True and well tested anyway.

Keep Safe out their Ivan.

Ivan 01 · Guru

Good morning Doug.

As I have said when I got my last van I opted for the DO 35 as I only had the choice of it or the ball but I have spoken to many users of the McHitch and the easy of hook up is the main claim to fame.
They are very attractive to know that they eliminate the need to have to drop the coupling to connect it. They are, within reason self aligning as well.
It would be disturbing coming across the expurt if for example anyone owned a 200 series and a McHitch.

*Wallet Wizard* would not let it rest until he had the traveller in tears.

Take care mate and travel safely.

jegog · Senior Member

Question 1: Why is mass the unit used for the vehicle and trailer and not weight?
Question 2: Why is weight the unit used for the force applied to the tow ball?
Don't know, well maybe the following will be of assistance.

Definitions
Mass (symbolized m) is a dimensionless quantity representing the amount of matter in a particle or object. The standard unit of mass in the International System (SI) is the kilogram (kg).

Weight: the force with which a body is attracted toward the earth or a celestial body by gravitation and which is equal to the product of the mass and the local gravitational acceleration. It is measured in Newtons. See simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_(unit)

Now for an explanation of what were termed as turning moments in the 1950s
www.google.com/search%3A1674792984378&ei=GFDTY7naFuSr4-EPwcadsAM&ved=0ahUKEwi5xp-H8ub8AhXk1TgGHUFjBzYQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=physics+moment&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQ6BAgjECc6BAgAEEM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOggIABCABBCxAzoICAAQsQMQgwE6BQgAEJECOgcILhCxAxBDOgoIABCxAxCDARBDOgkIABBDEEYQ-QE6CAguELEDEIAEOgsILhCABBDHARCvAUoECEEYAEoECEYYAFAAWJ1DYI5PaABwAXgAgAHzAogBqx2SAQYyLTEyLjKYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:2814334d,vid:S-t8KElc4bs

Understanding the above is essential for understanding why adding weight to the tow ball results in the measured weights at the axles changing and being able to calculate the changes.

And as adding a WDH results in imposing a torque to the vehicle and trailer masses an explanation of torque is helpful
www.youtube.com/watch

Those who claim to understand physics should have no problems with the above and then we can examine how the above principals can be used to explain how adding tow ball weight effects the weights measured at the vehicle axles. And given actual measurements of a vehicle we can calculate the changes for changing tow ball weights and for different tow ball locations.

Then we can explain why adding torque changes to measured weights.

A body has the same mass when at sea level or at 1500m ov3er sea level or in outer space, weight on the other hand will change.

Ivan 01 · Guru

Thank you jegog.

This post has now gone to the real technical side of the explanation so I will leave it to those more qualified than this old burnt out motor mechanic.

I am sure our Yobar will be back with a challenge or maybe he will tell you how it all works yet again.

Cube · Member

Certain people so obviously suffer from Dunning Kruger Effect.

These people often rubbish or dismiss someones else's invention, product, theory, observations etc literally out of desperation to be 'the smart one' or to be desperately seen as such. When you learn to see it, you will see it everywhere.

Often, low IQ insults (insulting others and thinking they literally don't see or are too stupid read into it especially in text form) is a tell-tale to those suffering DKE.

Now, I'm off to put my WDH on my McHitch and look at it. It's pretty. Tows awesome. Not even going to tow out of my drive or take measurements.

Possum3 · Guru

The DunningKruger effect is a cognitive bias whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a certain type of task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge. Some researchers also include in their definition the opposite effect for high performers: their tendency to underestimate their skills. Since its first publication, various criticisms of the effect and its explanation have been made.
Wikipedia

Dougwe · Chief one feather

Cube wrote:
Certain people so obviously suffer from Dunning Kruger Effect.

These people often rubbish or dismiss someones else's invention, product, theory, observations etc literally out of desperation to be 'the smart one' or to be desperately seen as such. When you learn to see it, you will see it everywhere.

Often, low IQ insults (insulting others and thinking they literally don't see or are too stupid read into it especially in text form) is a tell-tale to those suffering DKE.

Now, I'm off to put my WDH on my McHitch and look at it. It's pretty. Tows awesome. Not even going to tow out of my drive or take measurements.

make sure the combo of McHitch and WDH doesn't put your rig overweight.

DMaxer · Guru

No Doug. A WDH makes everything lighter because it lifts everything up. You know that! biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

Cube · Member

I heard a WDH is a great way to get rid of the dreaded tow shank rattle in the tow bar receiver, driving many a tug driver mad.

Are We Lost · Guru

I have stayed out of this discussion because they all seem to go pear shaped once one person comes on here. But I see nobody has actually posted an example with real figures.

Using the Landcruiser as an example, it's wheelbase of 2850mm is quite short. While a longer wheelbase is more desirable for towing, at least the towball overhang is not so bad. Without having one to measure, I am guessing that with a standard shank, perhaps cut to the minimum length it may be around 1200mm. Perhaps someone could advise what the actual measurement is.

With those figures it is easy to calculate what a given towball load adds to the rear axle. Using those measurements I quoted, and a hypothetical towball load of 300kg, that would apply 426kg to the rear axle.

Earlier Yobarr posted a photo of a McHitch and marked the additional overhang it adds. It looks like about 100mm to me. So let's do that calculation again. Wheelbase 2850mm, towball overhang now 1300mm. It adds a whole 10kg.

Is that all we are arguing about? Just 10kg difference?

But what about all the weight taken off the rear axle when the hitch is tensioned. If you tension it to lift 100kg, that is a net 90kg lifted. That would be mostly added to the front wheels and a little to the van wheels.

But even this substantial improvement is further improved when on the road. The dynamic nature of a WDH means that the more it is needed, the harder it works. Think of what happens on road undulations. As the rig starts to porpoise, the towball download increases substantially, then on the bounce back, can reduce to nothing. The WDH applies more force when needed, and none when not wanted. So when the van is applying more than that 300kg towball load during a bounce, that automatically tensions the WDH further. Reduce the towball load when it bounces back the other way and it applies less tension.

What a brilliant design.