Another WDH question

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Another WDH question

yobarr · Guru

Meznwaz wrote:
If you get rid of WDH used when towing does it cause more buffeting from large vehicles like semi trailers etc

Hi Mary. Although I do not use one of those over-rated contraptions, I would suggest that they have no affect on stability as they do nothing more than take a bit of weight off the cars rear axle, with some of that weight being distributed to the cars front axle and a lesser amount of that weight to the vans axle group.

Mind you, a lot would depend on what your car is, and what van you are towing. Details would help.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 17th of June 2023 05:51:57 PM

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Hi Yobarr, Thanks for your reply. We tow a 19-6ft Supreme Pop-top with a 2010 Ford Territory which is fitted with air bags and have been thinking of removing the WDH. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. Cheers

-- Edited by Meznwaz on Saturday 17th of June 2023 06:58:10 PM

yobarr · Guru

Meznwaz wrote:
Hi Yobarr, Thanks for your reply. We tow a 19-6ft Supreme Pop-top with a 2010 Ford Territory which is fitted with air bags and have been thinking of removing the WDH. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. Cheers

Hi Mary. Please can you look at the vans compliance plate, usually found in the front boot. We need the ATM (sometimes called GVM). If you could post a photo with serial number etc blanked out tgat would help.

Your Territory has a 1530kg rear axle capacity, which is very low, so you may well need to retain the WDH to stay compliant there, but if you supply the van's ATM we can help.

The airbags do nothing to help stability, merely levelling the car and van. I am assuming that your car is the 2 wheel drive model, which has a maximum towing capacity of 2300kg. As already said, if you supply van's ATM we can help. Good luck! Cheers

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Hi Yobarr, Our Territory is an AWD rated to tow 2300kgs and also has computerisation to tell us if we haven't got the right weight to all 4 wheels. Our van's ATM is 2026kg fully loaded. We run the WDH on chain link number 6 at the moment. Thanks

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Hi Yobarr, Our Territory is an AWD rated to tow 2300kgs and also has computerisation to tell us if we haven't got the right weight to all 4 wheels. Our van's ATM is 2026kg fully loaded. We run the WDH on chain link number 6 at the moment. Thanks

oxleigh · Veteran Member

What computerisation do you have on the Territory, must be something non standard, My terry has nothing like that. Never heard of such a system on Territories. The diesel AWD version has a 2800 kg towing limit with the heavy duty tow system.

yobarr · Guru

Meznwaz wrote:
Hi Yobarr, Our Territory is an AWD rated to tow 2300kgs and also has computerisation to tell us if we haven't got the right weight to all 4 wheels. Our van's ATM is 2026kg fully loaded. We run the WDH on chain link number 6 at the moment. Thanks

All looks good for no WDH but you should connect. van and load as if you were ready to travel, full fuel tank, all luggage etc and check rear axle weight. Must be no more than 1530Kg.
Best to use weighbridge, weigh front axle of car, then weigh whole car. Deduct front axle wright from total to get rear axle weight.

You might also weigh the van, and even do the towball weight of van, which should be around 200Kg, or 10% of ATM. This 200kg towball weight applies about 290kg to the car rear axle when connected, but assuming you are not exceeding the vans ATM, everything is good, with the car being a lot heavier than the van.Well done. Cheers

P.S Could you let us know hiw your weighing exercise goes? Your "computerisation" is all foreign to me and I would be happy to hear about it, although I have reservations about its efficiency.

yobarr · Guru

oxleigh wrote:
What computerisation do you have on the Territory, must be something non standard, My terry has nothing like that. Never heard of such a system on Territories. The diesel AWD version has a 2800kg towing limit with the heavy duty tow system.

That is indeed correct, but I didnt mention it because of the low van weight. Cheers.

Greg 1 · Guru

Contrary to yobarrs opinion, the WDH does contribute to the overall stability of the rig. It does this in two ways. Firstly by placing some of the weight back on the front axle of the tow vehicle so increasing steering ability and feel, along with better braking. Secondly by acting as a lever on the chains which tends to act to reduce sway. Properly adjusted, a WDH is a very good piece of equipment. I have been using them since 1975. I have experimented with and without the WDH and have demonstrated time and time again on various vehicles, the benefits of one of these. They do need to be properly set up for your particular rig, but personally, I wouldn't leave home without one. Yobarrs dislike of anything resembling a WDH is well known on this forum but many of us who have been using them over a long period know a little better. I not 100% sure but at that weight you are towing, I believe Ford recommend that you use one with a Territory.

Bill B · Guru

yobarr wrote:
oxleigh wrote:
What computerisation do you have on the Territory, must be something non standard, My terry has nothing like that. Never heard of such a system on Territories. The diesel AWD version has a 2800kg towing limit with the heavy duty tow system.
That is indeed correct, but I didnt mention it because of the low van weight. Cheers.

It isn't correct, it is 2700 kgs actually.

Are We Lost · Guru

As Greg said. Yobarr is the most vocal anti WDH member on here. There are a few others but the vast majority of those who use a WDH swear by them. If the van being towed is fairly light for the tow vehicle then probably it's not needed. If the boundaries are being pushed close to limits then the need for a WDH would likely be far more likely. From what you have posted so far it seems yours is somewhere between but heading towards the heavier side. Without knowing all the relvevant weights it's a bit hard to know for sure.

Next time it rains, try an experiment (where it is safe) and not going fast .... 40-50kph will do. Without the WDH fitted brake fairly hard and see how much the front wheels lose grip compared to the back. Presumably the ABS will activate causing shuddering from the front wheels. Then repeat the test with the WDH fitted and appreciate what it does. This is where a WDH shines because it dynamically adjusts the tension up or down as needed. As the tow vehicle rear end gets pushed down by the van tilting forwards, the tension gets stronger, lifting a greater percentage of weight from the back and returning it to the front, improving traction there. If a road undulation causes the drawbar to lift, the opposite applies and it reduces the tension.

When buffeting from a truck happens it is important that neither the rear end is too heavy or the front too light, as a reasonable balance is best able to maintain good control.

While airbags may level the vehicle, that is cosmetic, and does very little to help handling. Being harder, it will help to resist porpoising, but not as much as a WDH.

Greg 1 · Guru

I know that with the Falcon you could tow 2300kgs but only with Fords heavy duty tow pack which included a WDH, otherwise they were limited to 1600kgs. My father had a van which went about 2000kgs ATM and he was towing with a 2007 Fairmont Ghia. Given the Territory shares the same rear suspension and diff carrier subframe as the Falcon, there is a very good chance that the requirement to use a WDH to gain it's upper tow capacity will be the same.

TheHeaths · Guru

As Greg 1 says, it would be worth checking the vehicles owners book, or refer to Ford, to see if they require the use of a WDH when towing heavier weights.

I would always suggest checking with the manufacturer of your vehicle regarding towing and requirements that they recommend, and then following that advice.

woolman · Guru

There is only one way to not reduce weight on your front steering wheels. It is certainly not air bags.

Stability won't be a problem, until you get into a situation you need to emergency brake

Neil

Jaahn · Guru

Greg 1 wrote:
Contrary to yobarrs opinion, the WDH does contribute to the overall stability of the rig. It does this in two ways. Firstly by placing some of the weight back on the front axle of the tow vehicle so increasing steering ability and feel, along with better braking. Secondly by acting as a lever on the chains which tends to act to reduce sway. Properly adjusted, a WDH is a very good piece of equipment. I have been using them since 1975. I have experimented with and without the WDH and have demonstrated time and time again on various vehicles, the benefits of one of these. They do need to be properly set up for your particular rig, but personally, I wouldn't leave home without one. Yobarrs dislike of anything resembling a WDH is well known on this forum but many of us who have been using them over a long period know a little better. I not 100% sure but at that weight you are towing, I believe Ford recommend that you use one with a Territory.

Hi generally I agree with Greg. I have a small MH now but have had a couple of smaller vans and also car trailers that i had for many years which I towed with normal sedans and later front wheel drive cars too. Apart from normally setting them up level and a good ball weight etc i always used a WDH and found that it made the rig overall more stable and resistant to wind and passing trucks etc. The extra friction in the coupling and bars helps with controlling any sway that may arise from any reason, as well as redistributing the ball weight better. IMHO.

Jaahn

-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 18th of June 2023 10:48:08 AM

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Hi oxleigh, sorry it's taken me so long to reply. My hubby was referring to the DSC system as he was told by Ford that you must replace all 4 tyres at the same time in an AWD to maintain the same traction on the road in all 4 wheels. We had a problem with the light coming on and terrible grinding noise whilst towing down a steep winding road and it was because we'd only replaced 2 back tyres after a puncture as the front ones still had quite a few thousand ks left in them. Tyre fitter said it was ok to do that, found out it's not so. Sorry for confusion. Please don't shoot the messenger as I'm only the keyboard operator!

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Thanks everyone for helpful replies. Think we'll be sticking with the WDH as it is recommended by Ford and we already have the heavy duty tow pack.

Gundog · Guru

Meznwaz wrote:
Hi Yobarr, Thanks for your reply. We tow a 19-6ft Supreme Pop-top with a 2010 Ford Territory which is fitted with air bags and have been thinking of removing the WDH. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. Cheers

-- Edited by Meznwaz on Saturday 17th of June 2023 06:58:10 PM

I would question the use of air bags in conjunction with the WDH, I wonder if air bags would have an effect with DSC.

Suggestion to try, deflate the air bags fully, reset your DSC and then setup your WDH according to instructions

Are We Lost · Guru

Meznwaz wrote:
..... We had a problem with the light coming on and terrible grinding noise whilst towing down a steep winding road .....

I very much doubt that different tyres would cause that ... unless they were a larger size. A "terrible grinding noise" suggests to me that the additional nose weight from the van on the Territory rear end compressed the suspension so far that the rear wheels rubbed on something. Possibly it was a vibration from the front ABS activating on and off, but I think that less likely if the road was dry.

Yes it is always good to have all 4 tyres matching, to help with uniform grip. But if the size is the same and reasonable quality I find that comment from Ford a bit surprising.

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Hi Are we lost, no the noise came from the front drivers side wheel on a particularly sharp corner coming down the Clyde mountain and when we got home to Qld and took it to Ford here that was the answer...said the DSC was activating because of the different tread thickness on the front tyres to the back ones. Hard to figure but we changed the front ones and haven't had any recurrence since. Fingers crossed. Thanks for your comments anyway.

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Thanks Gundog.. since putting new tyres on our front wheels to the same as the back as soon as we got home we haven' had any more trouble.

JackoFJR · Senior Member

Are We Lost wrote:

I very much doubt that different tyres would cause that ... unless they were a larger size. A "terrible grinding noise" suggests to me that the additional nose weight from the van on the Territory rear end compressed the suspension so far that the rear wheels rubbed on something. Possibly it was a vibration from the front ABS activating on and off, but I think that less likely if the road was dry.

Yes it is always good to have all 4 tyres matching, to help with uniform grip. But if the size is the same and reasonable quality I find that comment from Ford a bit surprising.

Tyres can very easily cause that issue , I had the same thing happen with my Dmax when I had it , I staked a tyre and fitted 2 new ones because the other 2 had plenty of life left

I noticed on every bend in the road the stability light would flash and cut power to the engine , had me stumped for a while but it was the tyres , there was about 5mm difference in tread depth that was about 36mm in circumference , it was enough to really upset the ESC .

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Hi JackoFJR, thanks for that info on your experience too. Yes it seems these computerised things can be very sensitive. Ours all good now hopefully.

Are We Lost · Guru

JackoFJR wrote:
.... there was about 5mm difference in tread depth that was about 36mm in circumference , it was enough to really upset the ESC .

Wow. We learn something new every day. So the system assumed you were constantly skidding.

And now hearing from Menzwaz it was one front wheel, it fits together.

The Belmont Bear · Guru

We have a Jeep GC and tow a 3T 20ft van - Jeep advises that I need to use a WDH when towing over 2300kg so regardless of peoples opinion I choose to follow that advice. I changed over from using the HR torsion bar type WDH to an Andersen Hitch which is designed both for weight distribution and to act as an anti sway. We are currently 6000 kms into a lap of Australia and so far the van has been a pleasure to tow we have experienced zero sway even in some pretty strong cross winds or being passed by road trains. I have been following rigs at times on these outback highways that have been swaying noticeably - it doesnt seem to slow them down much maybe if they took their foot off a little they would get rid of the sway.

BB

Greg 1 · Guru

AWD vehicles have been known to destroy the drive train due to uneven tyres. Hyundai, sometime ago, put out a warning to X35 owners to make sure that they change all tyres when buying new due to differing wheel speeds that the transmission cannot cope with and it has been known for some X35's to destroy the transmissions. The Territory may well be the same.

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Hi Belmont Bear, Thanks for your comments on the subject. We've decided to stay with our WDH as it is reccomended in the Ford hand book too.

Meznwaz · Veteran Member

Thanks Greg, yes after our experience with only relacing 2 tyres instead of 4 at the same time it seems it definitely is a problem with AWD vehicles, at least with Territorys anyway.

Gundog · Guru

Yes I thought what a lot of BS changing 4 tyres at a time. I have learnt something today.

Front tires on an all-wheel drive (AWD) vehicle often wear more quickly than those on the rear axle. Why? Because your front tires handle most of the braking and steering. Other factors that can add to wear include: misalignment, aggressive driving, underinflated tires and failure to regularly rotate front tires to the back.

Although, it can be tempting to replace only the two most-worn tires, heres why it may be better to replace all four tires on your AWD vehicle at once.

Replacing just one or two tires on an AWD vehicle could cause unnecessary wear and tear on your drivetrain, or confuse the traction control system to think that you are frequently losing traction.

A new tire is larger in diameter than one of the same brand, type and size thats part way through its tread life. This means theres a measurable difference in tire circumference that may affect your vehicles performance.

To understand why this matters, imagine two people out for a walk. Both are wearing fitness trackers that monitor the distance they travel and the number of steps they take. However, one of them is taller and has longer legs. By the end of the workout, they might cover the same distance, but the taller walker will have taken less steps to get there.

The same is true for mismatched tires. A taller tire with more tread depth travels more distance in a single revolution than a shorter tire with less tread depth. In order to keep up, the tire with less tread depth will spin faster and have more revolutions than the tire with more tread depth.

So why is mixing new and used tires a potential problem for your AWD vehicle? First, even a slight difference in diameter between front and rear tires on your AWD can mean trouble for the drivetrain. These are the components of the car that transfer the power from the engine to the wheels that move the vehicle forward.

If any tire or tires are spinning faster than any of the others, your cars electronics may think a tire is slipping, and could transfer power incorrectly for your current driving conditions. Most AWD systems in todays cars include sensors at each wheel that monitor traction and wheel speed many times per second. This is what allows the AWD system to adapt to slick conditions, by sending power to whatever wheel(s) have the most traction.

When smaller tires are spinning faster, some systems may put your vehicle into four-wheel lock, the mode used for driving in slippery conditions. Driving in that mode on pavement or at speed may cause damage to your vehicles drivetrain and result in spendy repairs.