Freedom..

aussie_paul · Guru

Freedom..

yobarr · Guru

Very true, Paul. This is in a similar vein. Cheers

Aussie1 · Guru

Two very timely reminders to all the 'drop kicks" in society who would have no clue as what respect means. Great post you two.

Basher · Senior Member

Maybe some would would call you a "drop kick" with a comment like that!
I have great respect for returned service men and women, but really, no need to make a comment like this, your just big noting yourself, hero!
Basher

landy · Guru

Another good post Paul, thank you.

yobarr · Guru

Aussie1 wrote:
Two very timely reminders to all the 'drop kicks' in society who would have no clue as what respect means.

Good comment Ray, but I think that all the 'do gooders' among us have contributed to many members of the next generation having no respect for anything or anybody, including themselves.

And when it all goes wrong the do-gooders bleat about 'tough unbringing' and 'broken home' etc, but whose bluddy fault is that? Certainly not you or me. 'Drop kicks' is an apt description for these no-hopers. No cheers here.

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 10th of August 2023 09:05:53 PM

Bicyclecamper · Guru

I Appreciate it Paul.

Aussie1 · Guru

Basher wrote:
Maybe some would would call you a "drop kick" with a comment like that!
I have great respect for returned service men and women, but really, no need to make a comment like this, your just big noting yourself, hero!
Basher

My silence doesn't mean I agree with you, it means your stupidity left me speechless.

Cuppa · Guru

I think we can do without American Nationalism here.

As for Freedom being bestowed upon us by our military, who, after all, give their service to the government of the day is debatable & and varies with the circumstances.

I can see, for example, how the military were instrumental in protecting British freedoms during WW2 when the Nazi's were threatening invasion, but struggle more to see how freedom was gained for the American (& Australian) population in Afghanistan & many other conflicts where we were the aggressors.

Nevertheless my respect for those who do their duty, giving their lives or their health at the behest of their government, is real. I do however think that many who 'give their lives' do so as cannon fodder for misguided governments, only later to be called heroes to justify the actions of governments which should never have occurred.

The true military heroes who contribute to our freedom are those who protect us (& our forbears) when we are under threat, & do so not just because they are told to, but because they want to protect us.

At risk of offending some, being in the military & doing what you are told does not automatically make you a hero, & in many cases, armed conflict does nothing to increase our community's freedoms. It can easily be argued for example that many of the conflicts that Australia has been part of, which were about remaining allies with the USA (who in many cases have been the aggressors and/or the instigators of conflict) that these alliances have in fact resulted in a reduction in our freedoms, & made our lives less safe.

Posts like the two picture posts in this thread are more about Nationalism than they are about Patriotism.

-- Edited by Cuppa on Friday 11th of August 2023 08:23:17 AM

Basher · Senior Member

Cuppa, ya nailed it in one, prepare for incoming
Basher

Possum3 · Guru

Aussie1 wrote:

My silence doesn't mean I agree with you, it means your stupidity left me speechless.

This is the most apt comment made on this site, ever.

Gundog · Guru

By the laws of probability, I could safely suggest that a couple of responders here have not served in the military.

That being the case then you have NFI about what it means to serve and do one's duty.

It was the world political masters that F----d up the Afghanistan result, not having to wll to complete the assignment thus returning the place to the religious despots again.

The females gained freedom only to have it taken away from them to become an oppressed gender.

Spruke your opinion to the loved ones who lost a family member trying to give freedom to other to enjoy like we have.

We have a stupid media who attack our hero's like BRS trying to weaken our military with their lefty rubbish to give themselves a hard on, their reporting is more fiction than fact.

-- Edited by Gundog on Friday 11th of August 2023 08:47:55 AM

msg · Guru

The media only report stuff designed to cause anxiety and panic among society and should be dismissed as misinformation.

yobarr · Guru

Possum3 wrote:
Aussie1 wrote:
My silence doesn't mean I agree with you, it means your stupidity left me speechless.
This is the most apt comment made on this site, ever.

Well said, Possum. Cheers

Cuppa · Guru

Gundog wrote:

media who attack our hero's like BRS trying to weaken our military

If you consider a person like Ben Roberts-Smith to be a hero then it's hard to take anything you have to say on behalf of the military seriously. He should be serving time - in an Afghan prison.

EDIT: My wife just read the 'hard on' comment. Her response was "OMG he sounds like a schoolboy".

-- Edited by Cuppa on Friday 11th of August 2023 09:40:09 AM

Aussie1 · Guru

Gundog wrote:
By the laws of probability, I could safely suggest that a couple of responders here have not served in the military.
That being the case then you have NFI about what it means to serve and do one's duty.
It was the world political masters that F----d up the Afghanistan result, not having to wll to complete the assignment thus returning the place to the religious despots again.
The females gained freedom only to have it taken away from them to become an oppressed gender.
Spruke your opinion to the loved ones who lost a family member trying to give freedom to other to enjoy like we have.
We have a stupid media who attack our hero's like BRS trying to weaken our military with their lefty rubbish to give themselves a hard on, their reporting is more fiction than fact.

-- Edited by Gundog on Friday 11th of August 2023 08:47:55 AM

X2 Gundog. And fortunately the majority agree with you post. That includes all the sensible folks on here.

My silence to a certain other poster on here is, in my opinion, deserving of the same response I posted to someone called Basher. Some just don't get it.

peter67 · Guru

Basher wrote:
Maybe some would would call you a "drop kick" with a comment like that!
I have great respect for returned service men and women, but really, no need to make a comment like this, your just big noting yourself, hero!
Basher

Keyboard warriors are always brave, perhaps you need some soothing "face time"...I've got lot's of spare time.

Cuppa · Guru

peter67 wrote:
perhaps you need some soothing "face time"...I've got lot's of spare time.

Was this a personal threat? Surely not?

dogbox · Guru

Cuppa wrote:

Gundog wrote:

media who attack our hero's like BRS trying to weaken our military
If you consider a person like Ben Roberts-Smith to be a hero then it's hard to take anything you have to say on behalf of the military seriously. He should be serving time - in an Afghan prison.

EDIT: My wife just read the 'hard on' comment. Her response was "OMG he sounds like a schoolboy".

-- Edited by Cuppa on Friday 11th of August 2023 09:40:09 AM

why would he be serving time in an Afghan prison?

the person you refer to has not been found guilty of any criminal offence.

unless a person was there or been in similar circumstances, they should refrain from otherizing others from the safety of the lives we lead in this country

Magnarc · Guru

Why would you assume that it was a threat? Peter was just offering to help him assuage his belligerent attitude towards others which is evident in most of his posts.

Some people are stirrers and delight in disrespecting others. Well done Aussie.

Cuppa unless your wife posts on the forum, what she thinks has very little relevance on here, imho.

-- Edited by Magnarc on Friday 11th of August 2023 12:18:53 PM

-- Edited by Magnarc on Friday 11th of August 2023 12:21:48 PM

yobarr · Guru

peter67 wrote:
Basher wrote:
Maybe some would would call you a "drop kick" with a comment like that!
I have great respect for returned service men and women, but really, no need to make a comment like this, your just big noting yourself, hero!
Basher
Keyboard warriors are always brave, perhaps you need some soothing "face time"...I've got lot's of spare time.

Love it, but be aware of unexpected consequences. Many year ago I was involved in an altercation where a boofhead challenged me to hit him. It was all on when I simply replied that I couldn't do that because "sheet splatters"! Came to mind when I read your post, but beware that you are addressing someone who seems to be unsure of his own name. PM me if you would like that explained. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 11th of August 2023 12:51:18 PM

Cuppa · Guru

Magnarc wrote:
Why would you assume that it was a threat?
____________________________________________
An assumption with a question to clarify whether the assumption was correct.
Seems Yobarr made the same assumption .
Here we are talking about the freedom that some suggest we have because of military action, & the way that that freedom is expressed toward another who has different views & says so is to threaten violence. Not only that, but receives support from others for doing so. Sheesh!

Cuppa · Guru

It is obvious that those who like to tell us how lucky we are to have the freedom 'won' for us by military conflict are the same that will not tolerate different views to their own being expressed.

Right from the outset in the OP where it says "It was the veteran - Not the campus organizer who gave us the freedom to protest" I thought to myself those who will speak out in support of this would be the first to say that students shouldn't protest! LOL

-- Edited by Cuppa on Friday 11th of August 2023 01:30:15 PM

Are We Lost · Guru

Cuppa wrote:

I can see, for example, how the military were instrumental in protecting British freedoms during WW2 when the Nazi's were threatening invasion, but struggle more to see how freedom was gained for the American (& Australian) population in Afghanistan & many other conflicts where we were the aggressors.

A very short sighted comment.

My father served in WW2 and was based in New Guinea to help thwart the Japanese invasion to Australia via New Guinea. If the US had not intervened in the war there is little doubt that the Japanese would have triumphed in the south pacific with Australia almost certainly falling into Japanese hands.

When an ally saves the country, do you think we should walk away from that ally when asked to support? Regardless of the justification to be in Afghanistan I believe we had an obligation to support our ally. And at the time many people believed such action was in fact justified. Without that alliance in place how do you think relations with China would be at present?

So I join others in appreciating the sentiments from those first two posts. Those who volunteer for their country knowing they may never come home deserve more respect than the general attitude of your post.

msg · Guru

I think everyone should make as much noise about issues they disagree with as possible. However, there are ways to go about that and ways not to. Gluing yourself to the road and delaying peak hour traffic is a way not to. Also spraying paint on things, destroying valuable artwork or setting fire to things is also a no no.

Cuppa · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
Cuppa wrote:

I can see, for example, how the military were instrumental in protecting British freedoms during WW2 when the Nazi's were threatening invasion, but struggle more to see how freedom was gained for the American (& Australian) population in Afghanistan & many other conflicts where we were the aggressors.

A very short sighted comment.
My father served in WW2 and was based in New Guinea to help thwart the Japanese invasion to Australia via New Guinea. If the US had not intervened in the war there is little doubt that the Japanese would have triumphed in the south pacific with Australia almost certainly falling into Japanese hands.
When an ally saves the country, do you think we should walk away from that ally when asked to support of the justification to be in Afghanistan I believe we had an obligation to support our ally. And at the time many people believed such action was in fact justified. Without that alliance in place how do you think relations with China would be at present?
So I join others in appreciating the sentiments from those first two posts. Those who volunteer for their country knowing they may never come home deserve more respect than the general attitude of your post.

I had no intention of trying to list all the conflicts in which folk sought to protect their community, any more than I intended to list those where that was not the case. I still don't, but there are plenty examples of both.

When any country goes to war it is inevitable that they will claim to be in the right (with God on their side) & that they are aiming to defeat a threat of some sort. History often reveals a different story. Back when Howard was talking of the weapons of mass destruction which never existed other than in the minds of the propagandists to support an American powerplay many people believed him & as you say considered the action justified. Many also recognised we were being led up the garden path - lied to - to justify western warmongering. Somewhere in the records of the local paper from where I lived is a photo of a large number of such people protesting. At the front is a young man holding a placard which said simply "Stop Aussie Warmongering". That young man was me. Many people knew it was wrong & were eventually proven to be correct. Australians & many others died, & many more had their lives & the lives of their families wrecked as a result of those lies. It should not have happened.

As far as supporting allies......... If my best mate was about to murder an innocent bystander, I would try to stop him, I wouldn't aid in the killing just because he was my best mate.

We can never know what our relationship with China might be right now if we hadn't committed to an alliance with the US. If we had spoken out against the US warmongering it might be a very different world. Possibly better, possibly worse. Like with my best mate we should have stood tall & done what was right, rather than what served certain interests.

-- Edited by Cuppa on Friday 11th of August 2023 02:44:01 PM

Cuppa · Guru

msg wrote:
I think everyone should make as much noise about issues they disagree with as possible. However, there are ways to go about that and ways not to. Gluing yourself to the road and delaying peak hour traffic is a way not to. Also spraying paint on things, destroying valuable artwork or setting fire to things is also a no no.

Some forms of protest are more effective than others. Protesters, like anyone else, have the freedom of choice. Some use that freedom wisely. Some don't. That is not really the point here.

I'm sure you've heard comments like, "Bloody students, what do they know, they should get a job & take a wash & stop being a 'rent a mob"" or words to that effect. You can guarantee one thing, that sort of response, critical of student protest, would come from those who agree with what the students are protesting about. whether it be the Franklin dam, the Daintree or climate change, the response is frequently not "I disagree', but instead "They shouldn't be allowed. It is that sort of view I made reference to. ,

msg · Guru

And I am saying it not what they protest but how they go about it.

Cuppa · Guru

msg wrote:
And I am saying it not what they protest but how they go about it.

Understood. And my point is 'how they go about it' is rarely acceptable to those who disagree with them.

The WA government sent in an army of police to hurt Australian citizens who were peacefully blockading a road in the Kimberley, on the premise that the protesters should not be allowed to block a public road. It was a completely over the top aggressive & violent response, justified by corporate aspirations & money. The only alternative to blocking the road was to wave placards at the bulldozers as they drove through to destroy the country the protesters were trying to protect.

So the criticism against any meaningful protest is always the same. 'They shouldn't be allowed". If folk always took notice of mild protests which inconvenienced no-one, ever more desperate forms of protest wouldn't be needed. Too often the protests are to protect something that 'when it's gone, it's gone'.

I guess we probably have different views on what constitutes 'acceptable' protest methods. I do acknowledge that there are forms of protest which make me uncomfortable, as well as forms of protest which take huge commitment & courage, but I'm also glad that there are folk who have the balls to do it.

Anyway I think the issue of student protests is a side issue in this thread - probably deserves a thread of it's own. LOL.

Are We Lost · Guru

Cuppa wrote:
At the front is a young man holding a placard which said simply "Stop Aussie Warmongering". That young man was me. Many people knew it was wrong & were eventually proven to be correct. Australians & many others died as a result of those lies. It should not have happened.

So, as a protestor did you have inside knowledge that most Australians did not? In this case maybe you were right. But what if you had been wrong and yet your protests succeeded? Then a year later a major terrorist attack on Australians was carried out. Would you feel good then?

But that is denigrating protestors ... and I think they should have a right to protest .... peacefully without attempting to cause disruptions to innocent people. Just about every cause has two sides to it, whether it is war, left or right, or becoming involved in other countries' affairs. While those in government have vastly more information than the average citizen they frequently can't reach an agreement. So a member of the armed forces has little ability to make such judgements. Being on the spot helps to see things from a close perspective, but not to understand the nuances at a higher level.

So, in fact that raises the level of respect we should be giving. They fight for the country often against an enemy that does not play by our rules. and maybe when they disagee with or don't fully understand why they are fighting.