Suggestions for a first caravan??

blakey72 · Member

Suggestions for a first caravan??

Possum3 · Guru

Blakey, Most caravans in Australia are made by small independent manufacturers, it is a self regulated industry with many vans failing basic quality control. The Australian Consumer Law is often disregarded by Caravan Dealers in as much as honouring warranties, and return of faulty goods. Be certain to obtain independent advice and ensure a competent person inspects any purchase PRIOR to accepting delivery.

Mariner30 · Senior Member

On a more positive note peruse all the offerings on your local sales sites,
Do a lot of reading on various caravan sites, including those with brand owners groups,
And caravan magazines etc etc.
Make a list of things that are high on your personal ' must have ' list.
Things like single beds or a double island bed, where you don't have to climb over your wife...or her you... to get up during the night.
Lots of info out there already,

Eaglemax · Guru

Welcome Blake's I would recommend an ensuite van. Jurgens came out with several on road lightweight vans (for their size) including off road models. They ceased operations in 2020 but most parts are generic so it isn't an issue. When young and wanting a motorcycle people said start small, I went straight to a large one without trouble. I don't feel, with your boat towing experience, you need to buy a mid size then larger van. After all, apart from parking, towing the longer van is little different. If tar and dirt roads I'd recommend the Jurgens Lunagazer or Tooradin and off road the Solaris. Buying right in the 1st time saves money. Enjoy the site.

Basher · Senior Member

As its your first van, remember it probably won't be your one and only, so it is not going to be perfect, your ideas on what you want will change.
First up $60k, it will not be new, but a good starting first up budget, you say your wanting offroad, or semi offroad, here are some vans too consider, in my opinion.
Trackmaster, bloody good offroad vans( had one),
Evernew make a very good van, never hear any complaints,
Kedron, have a good name
JB again have a good name, mate has one, not a lot of negative feedback
This is just a start, google is your best friend, others will suggest other companies and there are dozens to choose from
Think about the size, single axle or tandem, it will effect your price and towing comfort, and lets not get into weights yet
Just do your homework.cheers and good luck, and enjoy it, listen and learn, no one person knows it all smile
Basher biggrin

Possum3 · Guru

I would normally refer people to Colin Young (Chief Engineer) at Caravan Council of Australia, but I have been unable to access their site for days.

I however will advise members seeking advice on caravans to contact Choice, the Australian Consumer Guide. www.choice.com.au/transport/cars/general/articles/caravan-failures-accc-survey

KJB · Guru

Firstly, establish the - TRUE - towing/carrying capacity of your tow vehicle. This and the size (-TRUE- size/weight) of van will be the governing factors between what you want and what you can have and remain legal (as far as "weights" are concerned.)

Best to sort these initial "unknowns" out before "spending". Can save a lot of tears later on........

deverall11 · Guru

We approached this using a number of parameters. Comfort was the ruling one.
We were also advised by close friends who had done the lap a number of times to
go for a camper trailer. We ignored this but in hindsight we should've considered
it more closely. It was our first caravan and had no experience in that field.
We researched for twelve months reading all there was to read.
Here is our conclusion in reflection after being on the road for 4 years.
A camper trailer would've been a better option. Less fuel burnt and negate
the need for a 3t capacity to tow. Lot easier to setup.
Should you buy a caravan from a dealer of sort, new or otherwise, you are
on your OWN. The so called warranty is not worth the paper it's printed on.
Lot easier to ignore that and pay for warranty repairs then get into the argument.
My wife and I have had our lives threatened by the owner of a caravan manufacturer
who has a reasonable presence on the market because I dared to have a warranty
claim. Warranty on a caravan is not like warranty on a car. Had similar arguments
on our first caravan, albeit without the death threats.
No all dealers or manufacturer are the same but until the industry is regulated this is what you're facing.
"Lemon caravans" on facebook will give you an insight.
Finally, research, research, research.
Good luck

yobarr · Guru

KJB wrote:
Firstly, establish the - TRUE - towing/carrying capacity of your tow vehicle. This and the size (-TRUE- size/weight) of van will be the governing factors between what you want and what you can have and remain legal (as far as "weights" are concerned.)
Best to sort these initial "unknowns" out before "spending". Can save a lot of tears later on........

Excellent advice Kerry, but as a starting point Blake needs to know that despite the 'advice' and assurances that he is likely to get from salesmen and others with a vested interest, there is no way that this car can safely tow any caravan with an ATM above 3000kg. Details later today if I get time. Cheers

Eaglemax · Guru

Hi Blake

It's unlikely it would be safe towing any caravan over say 2700kg ATM as then on the van will be heavier than the tug and you'd be under other parameters leaving some cargo weight in your tow vehicle. There is plenty of off road caravans with an ATM under 2700kg in the market that are over 16ft long with creature comforts but thats the weight I'd start at and under.

yobarr · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
Hi Blake

It's unlikely it would be safe towing any caravan over say 2700kg ATM as then on the van will be heavier than the tug and you'd be under other parameters leaving some cargo weight in your tow vehicle. There is plenty of off road caravans with an ATM under 2700kg in the market that are over 16ft long with creature comforts but thats the weight I'd start at and under.

Car has GVM of 2980Kg, I believe, so can safely tow a van up to around 3000kg ATM. With the generally recognised 10% towball weight this would give 2700Kg GTM (Weight on van wheels) behind a car with 2980kg on its wheels.

This would mean that there is 10% more weight on the car wheels than there is on the van wheels, which is considered a minimum ratio for safe towing.
As always, the stumbling point is likely to be the cars rear axle carrying capacity which I am still looking for.

Perhaps this figure is in Blakes vehicle handbook?

The car has quite impressive specs, particularly the long wheelbase, so would be good for towing up to 3000kg ATM.

Beware though, as 3500Kg is LaLa Land stuff. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 29th of August 2023 11:32:06 PM

blakey72 · Member

Thank you very much for the replies everyone. Yes I was considering weight very much as I realise not everyone cares about safety. I want to keep the ATM as Eaglemax said under 2700kg, even lower if possible hence a smaller van. Obviously you can't get everything you want and be under weight, there must be compromises. Brands, reliability and good service are what I'm kind of exploring at the moment. It seems you get what you pay for in this industry, and it can be a minefield.

blakey72 · Member

yobarr wrote:
Eaglemax wrote:
Hi Blake

It's unlikely it would be safe towing any caravan over say 2700kg ATM as then on the van will be heavier than the tug and you'd be under other parameters leaving some cargo weight in your tow vehicle. There is plenty of off road caravans with an ATM under 2700kg in the market that are over 16ft long with creature comforts but thats the weight I'd start at and under.
Car has GCM of 2980Kg, I believe, so can safely tow a van up to around 3000kg ATM. With the generally recognised 10% towball weight this would give 2700Kg GTM (Weight on van wheels) behind a car with 2980kg on its wheels.
This would mean that there is 10% more weight on the car wheels than there is on the van wheels, which is considered a minimum ratio for safe towing.
As always, the stumbling point is likely to be the cars rear axle carrying capacity which I am still looking for.
Perhaps this figure is in Blakes vehicle handbook?
The car has quite impressive specs, particularly the long wheelbase, so would be good for towing up to 3000kg ATM.
Beware though, as 3500Kg is LaLa Land stuff. Cheers

I will check out the manual for axle carrying capacities when I get a chance. Yeah the Musso had no troubles towing the 21' ski boat,

Eaglemax · Guru

Yeh you're on yhe right track. Bit pointless towing a van at 3000kg ATM which will result in no load in the back of your ute hence the 300kg buffer with piece of mind. Tools, water bladder, canopy etc. Regards

yobarr · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
Yeh you're on yhe right track. Bit pointless towing a van at 3000kg ATM which will result in no load in the back of your ute hence the 300kg buffer with piece of mind. Tools, water bladder, canopy etc. Regards

How on earth can a 3000kg ATM van result in no load in the back of the ute? You seem well lost. Details tomorrow. Cheers

Are We Lost · Guru

I am guessing he means if you tow 3000kg you will not be able to put anything in the back.

Eaglemax · Guru

AWL, correct.

yobarr · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
I am guessing he means if you tow 3000kg you will not be able to put anything in the back.

Hi Stephen, If that is indeed what he means, he is wrong as the only difference in weight that affects the car when towing a 3000kg ATM van compared with towing a 2700kg van is 30kg, assuming the generally accepted 10% towball weight.

The reason that no more than 3000kg ATM can be towed is that this is the upper limit if we wish to ensure that weight on the car's wheels is at least 10% greater than the weight on van's wheels.

3000kg minus 10% (300kg) equals 2700kg weight on van wheels.(GTM)

Car's GVM is 2980kg, so we have 2700kg X 110%=2970kg. Perfect!

As always the limiting factor is rear axle carrying capacity but yesterday I spent much time attempting to establish what that capacity is. However, I gave up when nobody would tell me but were more intent on selling me a car.

How anybody thinks that cutting 300kg from an ATM of 3000kg allows any extra to be carried in the car is beyond me. Cheers

P.S Later today I will post all relevant figures if I find time, but 3000kg ATM is both safe and sensible.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 30th of August 2023 10:53:50 AM

Eaglemax · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
I am guessing he means if you tow 3000kg you will not be able to put anything in the back.
Hi Stephen, If that is indeed what he means, he is wrong as the only difference in weight that affects the car when towing a 3000kg ATM van compared with towing a 2700kg van is 30kg, assuming the generally accepted 10% towball weight.
The reason that no more than 3000kg ATM can be towed is that this is the upper limit if we wish to ensure that weight on the car's wheels is at least 10% greater than the weight on van's wheels.
3000kg minus 10% (300kg) equals 2700kg weight on van wheels.(GTM)
Car's GVM is 2980kg, so we have 2700kg X 110%=2970kg. Perfect!
As always the limiting factor is rear axle carrying capacity but yesterday I spent much time attempting to establish what that capacity is. However, I gave up when nobody would tell me but were more intent on selling me a car.
How anybody thinks that cutting 300kg from an ATM of 3000kg allows any extra to be carried in the car is beyond me. Cheers
P.S Later today I will post all relevant figures if I find time, but 3000kg ATM is both safe and sensible.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 30th of August 2023 10:53:50 AM

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-reviews/2021-ssangyong-musso-ultimate-review

Payload, 790kg as tested ; GVM, 2880kg ; GCM, 5880kg. If 300kg ATM van is attached it leaves you with 2880kg for the car and that includes the towball weight of 300kg (10% for heavy rig). By coincidence that it the maximum the car can weigh (GVM) having a kerb weight of 2170kg. Its an ELV model not a ELX or XLV model with higher payload.

So as I see it he can tow 3000kg but he wants to do off road travel. Recovery equipment, winch, shovels, straps, CB, passengers? extra water? So a 3000kg van ATM isnt realistic. Hence I suggested a 2700kg ATM caravan. That will allow his GCM to include 2700kg ATM van + 270kg TBM + 2610 for humans and load in car (440kg). This =

GCM= 5880kg max rig can weigh combined

ATM van= 2700kg

Car kerb wt= 2170kg

Max tug GVM= 2880kg

TBM= 270kg

Actual GCM= 5880kg

Load in car= 2610kg

Load in car = 440kg This figure isnt a lot of weight. 2x passengers leaves say 240kg left for recovery equipment, fuel water etc. This is the fault of the car manufacturer. Also the car manufacturers fault is the absurd towing capacity of 3500kg.

Total weight of car= 2880kg

ATM caravan= 2700kg

Tug is heavier than van by 6%. big tick

Yobarr you are suggesting-

van ATM= 3000kg

TBW= 300kg

GCM= 5880kg

leaves = 2880kg for car

Means = Tug is lighter than van by 10%. Not recommended. Tail wagging the dog

Hence max van weight is below 2700kg

yobarr · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
I am guessing he means if you tow 3000kg you will not be able to put anything in the back.
Hi Stephen, If that is indeed what he means, he is wrong as the only difference in weight that affects the car when towing a 3000kg ATM van compared with towing a 2700kg van is 30kg, assuming the generally accepted 10% towball weight.
The reason that no more than 3000kg ATM can be towed is that this is the upper limit if we wish to ensure that weight on the car's wheels is at least 10% greater than the weight on van's wheels.
3000kg minus 10% (300kg) equals 2700kg weight on van wheels.(GTM)
Car's GVM is 2980kg, so we have 2700kg X 110%=2970kg. Perfect!
As always the limiting factor is rear axle carrying capacity but yesterday I spent much time attempting to establish what that capacity is. However, I gave up when nobody would tell me but were more intent on selling me a car.
How anybody thinks that cutting 300kg from an ATM of 3000kg allows any extra to be carried in the car is beyond me. Cheers
P.S Later today I will post all relevant figures if I find time, but 3000kg ATM is both safe and sensible.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 30th of August 2023 10:53:50 AM
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-reviews/2021-ssangyong-musso-ultimate-review

Payload, 790kg as tested ; GVM, 2880kg ; GCM, 5880kg. If 300kg ATM van is attached it leaves you with 2880kg for the car and that includes the towball weight of 300kg (10% for heavy rig). By coincidence that it the maximum the car can weigh (GVM) having a kerb weight of 2170kg. Its an ELV model not a ELX or XLV model with higher payload.
So as I see it he can tow 3000kg but he wants to do off road travel. Recovery equipment, winch, shovels, straps, CB, passengers? extra water? So a 3000kg van ATM isnt realistic. Hence I suggested a 2700kg ATM caravan. That will allow his GCM to include 2700kg ATM van + 270kg TBM + 2610 for humans and load in car (440kg). This =

GCM= 5880kg max rig can weigh combined
ATM van= 2700kg
Car kerb wt= 2170kg
Max tug GVM= 2880kg
TBM= 270kg
Actual GCM= 5880kg
Load in car= 2610kg
Load in car = 440kg This figure isnt a lot of weight. 2x passengers leaves say 240kg left for recovery equipment, fuel water etc. This is the fault of the car manufacturer. Also the car manufacturers fault is the absurd towing capacity of 3500kg.
Total weight of car= 2880kg
ATM caravan= 2700kg
Tug is heavier than van by 6%. big tick
Yobarr you are suggesting-

van ATM= 3000kg
TBW= 300kg
GCM= 5880kg
leaves = 2880kg for car
Means = Tug is lighter than van by 10%. Not recommended. Tail wagging the dog

Hence max van weight is below 2700kg

You've confused ATM with GTM, which is 2700kg with 3000kg van. Weight on van wheels is 2700kg.Weight on car wheels with ELV model is 2880kg. Not ideal, but passable.

All my figures were quickly compiled,while I was in a cafe, on XLV model which has 100kg higher GVM, but the point that I was making is that neither of these cars is able to carry 300kg more in car simply by reducing ATM from 3000kg to 2700kg, as per your 'advice'. Not a chance.

P.S By the way, you've made the common amateur's mistake of counting the towball weight twice.

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 30th of August 2023 01:41:19 PM

Eaglemax · Guru

I retract my comment about 300kg extra can be added as load (easy as that). And you got the model wrong but thats ok.

The biggest problem with a van with an ATM of 3000kg if you add 2880 GVM to it then you have a heavier than the tug. If you go down to 2700kg van ATM (GTM (2430kg) + 2880kg tug, you dont have the tail wagging the dog.

The only way the owner can get more load in his car is to buy a caravan with a lower towball weight say for example ATM 2000kg which will give him another "X" amount of load capacity say 70-100kg or so. His restriction is the 2880kg GVM of the tug, that remains. In the situation of 3500kg ATM of the van its so ludicrous it is best explained here-

Bit hard to watch as he dribbles but a must for the OP.-

www.youtube.com/watch

yobarr · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
I retract my comment about 300kg extra can be added as load (easy as that). And you got the model wrong but thats ok.

The biggest problem with a van with an ATM of 3000kg if you add 2880 GVM to it then you have a heavier than the tug. If you go down to 2700kg van ATM (GTM (2430kg) + 2880kg tug, you dont have the tail wagging the dog.

The only way the owner can get more load in his car is to buy a caravan with a lower towball weight say for example ATM 2000kg which will give him another "X" amount of load capacity say 70-100kg or so. His restriction is the 2880kg GVM of the tug, that remains. In the situation of 3500kg ATM of the van its so ludicrous it is best explained here-

Bit hard to watch as he dribbles but a must for the OP.-

www.youtube.com/watch

Hi Tony, Great to see that you've finally realised that there is no way that you can gain 300kg carrying capacity simply by reducing ATM of any van being towed.

However, you seem to still not understand that you're counting towball weight twice in your 'calculations', so I'll again explain.

With a 3000kg ATM van your car's 2880kg GVM includes the 300kg towball weight, leaving van with 2700kg GTM.

So we have car 2880kg plus van 2700kg giving total weight of 5580kg. Easy stuff, although the difference in weight between car and van is not as great as it could be, even if it is MUCH better than the vast majority of car/caravan combinations that I observe in my travels.

Just today I had a look around a 25' (at least) van behind a Range Rover of some description. (Don't take much interest in Pommie rubbish). Drawbar had HUGE toolbox and a few bicycles on it, along with gas bottles etc., and van had axles well behind centre.

Towball weight would have been off the scale, not to mention GVM v GTM, but I was not in the mood to be bothered helping them. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 30th of August 2023 02:50:52 PM

yobarr · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
www.youtube.com/watch

Hmmmm. Thanks for posting this. Excellent video which should be compulsory viewing for all owners of LC200, popular twin-cabs, small 'SUVs' and all other tow vehicles with a claimed 3500kg tow capacity.

LaLa Land stuff, as there is NO WAY that these vehicles have any chance of safely towing anything like that weight as a PIG trailer. None.

John Cadogan rubs many up the wrong way with his abrasive personality, but, Mate, he knows his stuff, and you can be sure that those who dislike him simply cannot accept the truth.

As I have pointed out many times, with weights there is NO room for opinion.

Your weights are RIGHT. Or they're WRONG. Period. Cheers

yobarr · Guru

blakey72 wrote:
I will check out the manual for axle carrying capacities when I get a chance. Yeah the Musso had no troubles towing the 21' ski boat,

Hi Blake, Please let us know if you find these figures as all my correspondence with Ssangyong states "we do not provide actual front and rear axle specifications".

This is unsatisfactory, in my opinion, so I again contacted them seeking clarification,but I am yet to receive their reply.

Watch this space! Cheers

P.S Not sure if admin allows me to post a copy of the email, so I will just keep it in my records.

Eaglemax · Guru

yobarr wrote:
blakey72 wrote:
I will check out the manual for axle carrying capacities when I get a chance. Yeah the Musso had no troubles towing the 21' ski boat,
Hi Blake, Please let us know if you find these figures as all my correspondence with Ssangyong states "we do not provide actual front and rear axle specifications".
This is unsatisfactory, in my opinion, so I again contacted them seeking clarification,but I am yet to receive their reply.
Watch this space! Cheers
P.S Not sure if admin allows me to post a copy of the email, so I will just keep it in my records.

Well combined effort we got somewhere, all for the safety of members. :) Ssangyong not giving out axle weights? Thats a first, unacceptable.

yobarr · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
yobarr wrote:
blakey72 wrote:
I will check out the manual for axle carrying capacities when I get a chance. Yeah the Musso had no troubles towing the 21' ski boat,
Hi Blake, Please let us know if you find these figures as all my correspondence with Ssangyong states "we do not provide actual front and rear axle specifications".
This is unsatisfactory, in my opinion, so I again contacted them seeking clarification,but I am yet to receive their reply.
Watch this space! Cheers
P.S Not sure if admin allows me to post a copy of the email, so I will just keep it in my records.
Well combined effort we got somewhere, all for the safety of members. :) Ssangyong not giving out axle weights? Thats a first,unacceptable.

Yes, I sent a terse email in reply, but doubt that I'll get a response.

Unfortunately for Blake they seem to be not a good choice for a motorcar? Cheers

Well, gotta give Ssangyong their dues as today I got a reply to my note, advising me that all axle weights are on the compliance plates on the door jamb.

Blake may wish to locate those figures and let us know? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 31st of August 2023 04:09:07 PM

Dick0 · Guru

Hi Blake,

I started off with a dual axle Jayco Freedom pop-top 18' with shower/toilet combo, a 1.8T capacity.

Easy to tow with all the basic comforts. I did my first Lap of Oz with it... from Vic to SA, WA, NT, QLD, NSW and back to Vic.

Then up the Centre to Uluru, Alice, Darwin, Cooktown and back down to Vic. After those trips I decided to get a 21' full van with full ensuite and 2.6T capacity.

I am glad I started with the pop-top. It gave me a chance to decide whether vanning was for me. I then decided what comforts I really wanted

for long term camping, mostly as a Free Camper, and chose, again, a dual axle van that I still have today and will probably keep for more years to come.

-- Edited by Dick0 on Thursday 31st of August 2023 11:05:50 AM

woolman · Guru

My comment would be to keep away from sales "must have" gimmicks. Like independent suspension, big heavy off road tyres. A load sharing rocker roller suspension will get you any where that you can actually tow with a 4 wheel drive. The tv shows doing sand hills and steep crossings can only be done in a smaller single axle van, not a touring van for retires.

Neil

Derek Barnes · Senior Member

Our first and current van is a Golf 390 Savannah Maxxi semi off road caravan. It is only 13' long but has separate toilet and shower rooms, and inside and outdoor kitchens. Being so short and single axle it can get into small spaces. We have driven it along dry creek beds in the Flinders Ranges, and along rough corrugated dirt roads in Western Queensland, and it has survived.
There have been a few niggles with shower drainage, etc., but all problems have been overcome fairly easily.

Brodie Allen · Guru

DONT unless you are a handyman and like stuffing around endlessly
and you intend to use for a considerable period yearly.

They aren't cheap to own, service, repair, tow, park fees, camp
fees and resale value losses.

Do your sums first - there's other alternatives to bloody vans.

B