23 ft van

Wanderin · Newbie

23 ft van

vince56 · Senior Member

I would say 2.7t tare is not far off the average van out there, certainly not what most would call a "heavy" van.
As has been stated on this forum many times, it is a very good idea to weigh your van as soon as you get it then compare that to the van's ATM to give you what payload you can carry, if it is like most I suspect you will find that the tare is heavier than posted on your compliance plate.
Also be careful of axle weights, GCM and GVM of the Jeep.

Mariner30 · Senior Member

Wanderin wrote:
Hi all , we are about to buy a large van as my wife and I want to do extensive travel. Its tare is 2.7 and has everything we want. Pulling it with a Jeep with 3.5 capacity. Everything ticks the boxes but I worry that it is a bit to heavy to drag around. I cant get anything lighter as that will compromise space. Any comments or things to consider? Thanks in advance !

Our first ' van years ago was 23ft,

No ensuite etc etc

It WAS heavy and our carby 4wd would struggle with even small rises,

Let alone headwinds...which we would try to avoid if at all possible.

Keep in mind the points already raised about axle weights etc etc.

Cuppa · Guru

Just one comment with no judgement on those for whom a larger van proves ideal.

If, as it sounds is possible, that this is your first van being purchased for your 'big trip', it is all too easy to fall into the trap of believing you know what you need & that belief adding to the thinking that the longer you travel for the larger the space you need.

Many, possibly most, experienced travel tend to advise "go with the smallest you can manage with, usually adding that experience often teaches that less is better. Always good to evaluate whether any advice received is on the basis of self justification ("Do like me").

Reality is that it is far from uncommon for newbies to discover a few months down the track that they wish they had chosen smaller rather than larger. (For anyone needing a larger van this is where some bargains can be had providing the buyer doesn't repeat the sellers mistake).

Apart from the towing/reversing etc, the larger the outfit the greater the restrictions on where it can be taken, & vice versa. Small gets you to many more places - especially when free/bush camping. So where you want to go and/or where you are happy not to go should play a big part on the decision to do with size. Luxury comes at a cost of more than just money...... often because it is the only way one partner can convince the other to 'take the risk' to up roots & travel. If it's the only way then thats how it is, but it can become an ongoing source of stress for some - providing an intrusive overlay on long planned dreams.

As proof that longer travel periods need not equate to larger accomodation, my wife & I (in our mid 60's) have travelled for the past 6 years fulltime with a hard top camper trailer. (Tvan). I'm not suggesting that this would suit everyone, but we have done it & have been able to get to places a larger caravan never could. We are now upgrading to something with a bit more convenience & indoor living, but it wont be towed & will still be able to take us to much of the 90% of Australia that only a minority of grey nomads get to experience.

There are of course less 'extreme' compromises.

This may all be stuff you have already considered leading to your decision you want a 3 tonne+ van. Those I have met who have had something like that & who have subsequently 'bit the bullet & changed to a smaller lighter van (often at quite a loss) have talked about what they changed to (having realised that they didn't need all the bigger van offered as they had believed they would) is far more relaxing/less stressful to travel with.

My comments are not based on having had a large Van. We have travelled extensively with both a 7 metre bus base motorhome & our current 4wd & Tvan over 2 decades, I am only posting for your consideration based upon my long experience of taking an interest in how others travel.

Whatever you choose I hope it works well for you & that your intended extensive travels are everything you have dreamed of.

Are We Lost · Guru

I agree with Cuppa's comments. I love the idea of large for living in but you have to pay the price when towing it.

But apart from that I am thinking this van may not be suitable for the Jeep, and that would be a very costly mistake. 3500kg behind a Jeep is not feasible, despite what the specs say. You say the van is 2700kg Tare. What is the ATM (the maximum it can weigh when loaded)? Do you intend to carry water? No doubt you will. If you intend to freecamp does it have solar? You refer to extensive travel so I assume that means you want plenty of the comforts from home, etc. Most likely that van, on the road for travel will weigh 3100 - 3200kg.

Then it is heavier than the tow vehicle and creates a safety concern. The tow vehicle should always weigh more than what it tows.

If you post the specs of your Jeep that would help. Tare or kerb weight, GVM, GCM and very important, the maximum rear axle loading. That is the easiest to overload because of leverage effect. If the towball download is (say) 280kg that puts almost 50% more onto the rear axle, or 400kg. From memory the Jeep has a fairly low rear axle rating.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 21st of September 2023 11:51:34 AM

yobarr · Guru

Wanderin wrote:
Hi all , we are about to buy a large van as my wife and I want to do extensive travel. Its tare is 2.7 and has everything we want. Pulling it with a Jeep with 3.5 capacity. Everything ticks the boxes but I worry that it is a bit to heavy to drag around. I cant get anything lighter as that will compromise space. Any comments or things to consider? Thanks in advance !

Hi Tom, Without having exact figures with me at present, despite what any sales spiel says, that van is waaaay too big for your jeep, no matter what the claimed tow rating is. Details later, but if you want to safely tow 3500kg you'll need a bigger car. Cheers

Mariner30 · Senior Member

Yep,
Another vote for replacing the tow vehicle for a more suited model that can handle the ' van that suits you the most.

Just a suggestion...have a look at 19 ft Jayco Heritage vans,
A neighbor and his wife has just upgraded from a 16 ft poptup and find that suits their lifestyle well.

It has enough room for them and they can take it to the places they still want to see without having to spend a lot of time packing up each time or not having enough room to swing a cat.

Some small 'vans etc can get claustrophobic when the weather turns crap and then you have only a few feet for living relaxing etcetc

A family member has a much smaller van and he now regrets buying it.. new...it will be up for sale soon

Roy E · Senior Member

Tom,

I've just completed 15 weeks, 11,000km with my partner and 2 small dogs in an 18'6" van. The van has full bathroom and heaps of storage space. We loved it and didn't want to end the trip.

A year before we did a 13 week, 10,000km trip and loved that too. This van has a TARE of 1805kg and an ATM of 2600.

I'm happy the van was "smallish" as we went over some difficult drives and long hills.

All or most respondents to your posts seem to be saying "Go Smaller".

Cheers and good luck.

Roy.

yobarr · Guru

Roy E wrote:
Tom,

I've just completed 15 weeks, 11,000km with my partner and 2 small dogs in an 18'6" van. The van has full bathroom and heaps of storage space. We loved it and didn't want to end the trip.

A year before we did a 13 week, 10,000km trip and loved that too. This van has a TARE of 1805kg and an ATM of 2600.

I'm happy the van was "smallish" as we went over some difficult drives and long hills.

All or most respondents to your posts seem to be saying "Go Smaller".

Cheers and good luck.

Roy.

Thanks for that, Roy.When you first showed your van to us I was most impressed, and I'm pleased that it has served you well. My van is only 19'6" and there's a mile of room, and although my car is good for 6800KG I'm right on that at only 19'6.

23' behind a Jeep? No way known.

None of what has been written is going to make Tom feel good, but he is better to be pre-warned than to buy a van that his car has NO CHANCE of towing, based on 'advice' he will get from those who don't really know weights, supported by deceptive tow ratings that are valid ONLY for towing DOG trailers, where there is almost no weight on the towball of the car. Shouldn't be allowed but no commission-based salesman of either cars or vans is going to risk his income by telling all that Tom needs to know.

I'm still researching Jeep's rear axle carrying capacity, but so far all I've found is that it is under 1700kg. You've gotta be joking!

That's hopeless. We will wait for Tom to post his vehicle specs and the van's ATM to give helpful advice. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 21st of September 2023 05:45:53 PM

The Belmont Bear · Guru

Tom

We just got back from doing a lap I have the 3ltr V6 diesel Jeep GC and it towed our 20ft van without a problem. Our first van was 22ft van and from that expeerience we wanted to come down in size. We started at 18' but we ended up buying a 20ft as the ensuite was a bit tight until we got up to that size. The 20' van is actually heavier than our previous 22' as we we beefed up the chasis and suspension, added extra solar panels etc. We had it weighed by a mobile weighing service before we set off, they did it as if we were travelling incl. full water tanks, gas bottles, clothes, food, full fuel tank and ourselves - it all came back within spec. with a little bit of wiggle room (van was 3050kg). This new ones tare is 2280kg, keep in mind that Jeep tell you to use a weight distribution hitch over 2300kg so we use an Andersen Hitch which is a bit lighter, works as an anti sway device and personally I think is easier to handle... We found on our 10,000km trip around Qld last year that we took way too much stuff, we ditched some of it for the lap around the country this year and we still took things that didnt get used. No problem with the Jeep pulling that weight its whether you can stay legal as you will be starting with 400kg more tare than what we did - I am comfortable with the van at 3.1T I wouldnt really want to go much higher. If I was buying another van I would again be looking at something smaller rather than larger although this 20ft one does seem to be a perfect size for us and it doesnt really feel any smaller inside than what the 22ft one did..

BB

Rusty W · Veteran Member

I don't have my jeep anymore so i can't tell you the axle weights but at 250 kg ball weight and stuff in the back i was under the rear axle weight without the Anderson hitch connected. With a WDH connected 280/300 kg ball weight should be possible.
With a longer wheelbase than a 200/300 series jeeps tow very well. People who have never driven/towed with one will rubbish them.

In saying all that there are a lot of jeeps out there with dead motors at the moment, nothing to do with towing.

yobarr · Guru

Rusty W wrote:
I don't have my jeep anymore so i can't tell you the axle weights but at 250 kg ball weight and stuff in the back i was under the rear axle weight without the Anderson hitch connected. With a WDH connected 280/300 kg ball weight should be possible.
With a longer wheelbase than a 200/300 series jeeps tow very well. People who have never driven/towed with one will rubbish them.

In saying all that there are a lot of jeeps out there with dead motors at the moment, nothing to do with towing.

65mm.

deverall11 · Guru

Our first van was 21ft towed with Pajero. The whole show was terrifying and scary but had no one
that could give reliable advice. We did not know about the Greynomads website.
After crossing the Nullarbor, we swapped into a 200 series Landcruiser. Much better, but not
ideal. Having a caravan that weighs more then the tow vehicle is a recipe for instability. We
toyed with different setting on the WDH but to no real avail.
We eventually traded in this 21ft van for a 23ft. The aim was to have a more useful floor plan.
A bit heavier but the biggest difference in stability was the fact the we had designed the bathroom
& toilet in the middle. This had the effect of moving the axle group further towards the rear.
Heavier van but as stable as a rock and only time you were made aware of its size was when
reversing in a bay (caravan park).
Moral of the story is check put where the axle group is and if it's in the middle as most shower
vans are, look for a bigger tow vehicle.
Wanderin, you posted here looking for advice. All the posts here are as good as it gets.

Gundog · Guru

With all due respect to those who have replied, if you haven't owned or towed a large caravan extensively, you don't know what you are talking about. You relay all the BS you hear from 50 cent experts.

My current caravan is a 25' Jayco Stirling, my previous van was a 30' Franklin, don't get me wrong my 25ftr is great but we do miss the extra space.

As for performance and economy our 3ltr Ranger handles the job with ease, generally fuel economy is around 14 to 15.5 l/100k towing in normal conditions.

Whilst I tend to discount the 4WD SUV/People ie. Cruisers, Jeeps, Mitsubishi's and the like as unsuitable for towing a large vans, probably if the ATM is under 3T they could be fit for purpose.

I should quantify that my van is a blacktop or occasional soft roamer, and that be well maintained dirt road, I have no desire to rattle down a corrugated road ie the Tanami.

yobarr · Guru

Gundog wrote:
With all due respect to those who have replied, if you haven't owned or towed a large caravan extensively, you don't know what you are talking about. You relay all the BS you hear from 50 cent experts.

Again with due respect, I have indeed towed big vans with an entirely unsuitable car, mainly because I knew nothing about weights when I was much younger. And I "drove to the conditions". Yeah, right.

How about 36' tri-axle van behind a CL Valiant. Rs on the ground and headlights to the sky, but ignorance is bliss, and road speeds were a lot lower in those days. Cheer

BAZZA44 · Senior Member

Little bit off topic but I am curious as to how different posters decide what size the van is. Are you quoting inside floor length or outside length of van side wall.

I always measure side wall length, as was always the case before front boots came into fashion and then manufactures began quoting useless inside dimension. Eg. inside 19ft = 21ft outside.

Barry

vince56 · Senior Member

Gundog, interested in the Cruisers / Jeeps etc being unsuitable, how so?

yobarr · Guru

vince56 wrote:
Gundog, interested in the Cruisers / Jeeps etc being unsuitable, how so?

Hi Vince, while I can't say what Graham's reasons are for declaring these vehicles as "unsuitable", I imagine that he understands the simple physics involved. ALL of the vehicles he mentioned are unsuitable for safely towing much more than 3000kg as a PIG trailer. (Caravan).

Low rear axle carrying capacity is the main reason, but low GCM also is a problem.

Remember, if safety is of any concern, always the weight on the car's wheels must be at least 10% more than the weight on the wheels of the van. Helps minimise the chances if the "Tail wagging the Dog".

Happy to supply more details if you wish, but Graham may elaborate? Cheers

erad · Guru

A lot has been said about stability of the rig. Fifty years ago, we bought our first caravan - an 18 ft, 4 full height van. but it was not a Jayco. The van was a few years old, and I gutted it and rebuilt it to copy the layout the current (at the time) model Evernew caravan. To get it registered, I took it in the stripped condition to the railway weighbridge, and it weighed a tad under 16 cwt (about 750 kg). I reasoned that the van was well within the towing capability of the Citroen, and this proved to be the case. Only once did I have trouble -taking off on an uphill section of smooth gravel road - the front wheels simply spun and the car was sliding sideways because of he camber.

Before I bought the van, I wanted to check if the Citroen had enough power -it had oodles, but was poor at low revs. I took the van for a test drive and violently swerved left/right/left etc and then straightened up. This was to if the tail would wag the dog. No way - it was totally stable, whatever I did to it. Hence we bought the van The point of this discussion is to say that the critical factor in stability of a rig is the length from the towball to the centre of the rear wheels. In the case of the DS Citroen, the rear wheels were virtually rubbing the rear bumper bar, so the leverage that the van could exert on the car was minimal - Probably 0.5 m maximum. Compare that with a Valiant of that era, or even a Toyota 79 series of today, where the leverage length must be at least 1.2m. With such a short lever length, the van was very stable. Even today, if I hook up a trailer or caravan, I perform a sway test so that I have some confidence in the way the rig will behave under emergency circumstances.

As for the towball weight, I had no idea, but no way could I lift it myself. This didnt matter, because I would reverse the car, lower the suspension fully, reverse the car so the towball was under the coupling and the raise the suspension. I would the get back in the car and once the towball was engaged, reset the suspension to normal height after removing the jockey wheel. I had no idea of the weight on the towball because the car always maintained the same height no matter what weight was applied to it.

Are We Lost · Guru

erad wrote:
....Fifty years ago, we bought our first caravan ...

Fifty years nobody talked about weight and safety in the same sentence ... at least not that I knew of. It was all about whether you could make it up hills. I recall hiring a van and towed it with my RX2 Mazda. The van was probably 16 foot, so in today's terms way overweight for the Mazda. But the power of the RX2 was amazing and it pulled the van with ease. I am somewhat wiser now.

When you refer to towball overhang I agree that it is an important factor. But I think, putting it more specifically it is the ratio between wheelbase and towball overhang. I don't know the Citroen wheelbase but it looks fairly decent.

It's a whole bundle of factors that affect safety. If you have most well within limits then it's OK to go outside the limits on something else (within legality of course). It's when the boundaries are being pushed in multiple areas that safety is a greater concern. I believe the ratio of tow vehicle weight to van weight it more important. If you have a light van behind a heavy tow vehicle then most concerns diminish. But if you have a heavy van for the vehicle, short wheelbase to overhang ratio, light towball load, but rear axle still really close to the limit then that is a poor choice of rig. It may well end up on Youtube, with belongings scattered all over the highway.

Also, there is no black and white on safety, but more degrees of reducing safety. Even towing a box trailer is not as safe as not towing. We just accept a level that we are comfortable with.

Wanderin has not come back with specifics (and my guess is he won't because it is not the news he wants to know). But I think the setup he proposes is pushing those boundaries and may well be over limit on some.

vince56 wrote:
Gundog, interested in the Cruisers / Jeeps etc being unsuitable, how so?

Does my comment answer the way I see it? I believe the van will be heavier than the tow vehicle (bad), the wheelbase is relatively short (bad) ... not sure about overhang, and likely to have the rear axle overloaded (bad). With a van a few hundred kilos lighter it could be a good combination. And maybe someone new to towing making it a lot worse.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 22nd of September 2023 07:48:34 PM

yobarr · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
erad wrote:
....Fifty years ago, we bought our first caravan ...
Fifty years nobody talked about weight and safety in the same sentence ... at least not that I knew of. It was all about whether you could make it up hills. I recall hiring a van and towed it with my RX2 Mazda. The van was probably 16 foot, so in today's terms way overweight for the Mazda. But the power of the RX2 was amazing and it pulled the van with ease. I am somewhat wiser now.
When you refer to towball overhang I agree that it is an important factor. But I think, putting it more specifically it is the ratio between wheelbase and towball overhang. I don't know the Citroen wheelbase but it looks fairly decent.
It's a whole bundle of factors that affect safety. If you have most well within limits then it's OK to go outside the limits on something else (within legality of course). It's when the boundaries are being pushed in multiple areas that safety is a greater concern. I believe the ration of tow vehicle weight to van weight it more important. If you have a light van behind a heavy tow vehicle then most concerns diminish. But if you have a heavy van for the vehicle, short wheelbase to overhang ratio, light towball load, but rear axle still really close to the limit then that is a poor choice of rig. It may well end up on Youtube, with belongings scattered all over the highway.
Wanderin has not come back with specifics (and my guess is he won't because it is not the news he wants to know). But I think the setup he proposes is pushing those boundaries and may well be over limit on some.

Lots of good information in this post, and the previous one by Erad, but we all know how things have dramatically changed over the years. The days of the old 16' van behind the HQ are long gone, and towing speeds have increased dramatically.

Sadly, it seems that your prediction about Wanderin's not returning to the forum is likely to prove to be true, but it would be remiss of us to offer any words of encouragement to any person planning to do do what Wanderin was proposing.

Unfortunately, sometimes the truth hurts, but we can only hope that Wanderin accepts the inconvenient truth and buys a more suitable car or a smaller van. Always we are here to help people like Wanderin, and I wish him well in his research. Cheers

gdayjr · Senior Member

once I decided I was going to travel the country, I decided on a caravan and a prime mover rather than an R.V.

I settled on a caravan that was 23.6 ft internal, and 30 ft from tow ball to spare wheel.

Tare was indeed around 2700 kg.

I then found a suitable prime mover that would tow 3500 kg safely.

It fitted all of my toys and tools with ease and I still have 950 kg of spare tare.

All I can say is if you have any concerns about the vehicle you own now, to tow the chosen caravan safely, maybe you should look around at options.

Do you need a ute? do you need a 4wd tank? There are alternatives.

vince56 · Senior Member

At risk of the old "my car is better than yours" however,
A new Ranger vs an LC200.
Ranger is about 400kg lighter, 10% less power, 8% less torque, GCM 450kg less, GVM 50kg less, max rear axle 50kg less, front 140kg less.
I can't see why the Ranger would be a better tow vehicle, unless I'm missing something.....

WindyHill · Member

vince56 wrote:
At risk of the old "my car is better than yours" however,
A new Ranger vs an LC200.
Ranger is about 400kg lighter, 10% less power, 8% less torque, GCM 450kg less, GVM 50kg less, max rear axle 50kg less, front 140kg less.
I can't see why the Ranger would be a better tow vehicle, unless I'm missing something.....

Perhaps has something to do with about 67% less $$$ to buy!

vince56 · Senior Member

The discussion was about safety and the "unsuitability" for towing

yobarr · Guru

WindyHill wrote:
vince56 wrote:
At risk of the old "my car is better than yours" however,
A new Ranger vs an LC200.
Ranger is about 400kg lighter, 10% less power, 8% less torque, GCM 450kg less, GVM 50kg less, max rear axle 50kg less, front 140kg less.
I can't see why the Ranger would be a better tow vehicle, unless I'm missing something.....
Perhaps has something to do with about 67% less $$$ to buy!

And a much longer wheelbase is a definite advantage for weight distribution and safety.

Although the Ranger can't match the LC200 when towing more than around 3000kg, the big stumbling block for the LC200 is its pathetically low rear axle carrying capacity.

Somewhere in my currently disorganised files I have all necessary details, but suffice to say that the LC200 is most over-rated tow vehicle around, simply because people don't understand weights.

The universally adored WDH, and in particular a McHitch, only make a bad situation worse. Cheers

Are We Lost · Guru

vince56 wrote:
I can't see why the Ranger would be a better tow vehicle, unless I'm missing something.....

Yes, you are missing something. Referring to what was available in 2018 when I bought my Ranger I am glad I did not go the extra expense of the LC200 because it could not tow what I can with the Ranger. The LC200 is heavier (a nice advantage), but the payload is too small. While the rear axle rating and GVM is slightly higher the initial load on them while empty is much higher.

Specifications vary across models but picking the VX (similar in the range to my XLT Ranger), the unladen weight is 2720kg with GVM 3300kg. That leaves a payload of 580kg. Compare that to the 1095kg payload of my Ranger.

So how is the 580kg in the LC used up?

Towball weight: 340 (fully laden for travel with full water tanks, 3000kg ... about 11%)
2 passengers and personal items: 200

That's it. Just 40kg remaining. But with the same in the Ranger there is 545kg available.

So, in the LC200, how do I carry the tools, spares, fishing gear, BBQ, table and chairs, hoses, leads, spare fuel and water that I want on a long trip. Let alone someone that wants to have a second battery and/or fridge. They can't go in the van because that would overload the van. Even if they did fit within the LC200 GVM allowance the weight has to be spread. Putting them in the back would overload the rear axle.

I believe the LC200 would make an excellent choice with a lighter van or someone who just wants to go away and stay in van parks, and be frugal with what they carry. Going for a longer trip and planning on freecamping, no way.

So it isn't about which is better. One can do the job and one can't.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 23rd of September 2023 11:20:17 AM

yobarr · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
vince56 wrote:
I can't see why the Ranger would be a better tow vehicle, unless I'm missing something.....
.I believe the LC200 would make an excellent choice with a lighter van or someone who just wants to go away and stay in van parks, and be frugal with what they carry. Going for a longer trip and planning on freecamping, no way.
So it isn't about which is better. One can do the job and one can't.

An LC200 cannot safely and legally tow a PIG trailer (caravan) with an ATM much over 3000kg. Sad. Inconvenient. Indesputable truth.

The most common GVM upgrade is a dead-set waste of money for towing. Great if you simply want to load the car right-up for TOURING with no trailer. Cheers

Are We Lost · Guru

Just a brief update on my post yesterday morning. Thinking about the weights I posted I had a fresh look at my weighbridge notes and realise that was when I found that the rig was over the 6000kg GCM by about 70kg. About 40kg of that was over on the Ranger rear axle limit. I had to get rid of my spare battery and some fuel and water. This enabled me to move some stuff from the van to the Ranger reducing towball mass by about 20kg.

The end result was to just squeeze into the Ranger GVM of 3200 when connected (less than 50kg spare), leaving 2850kg for the van on the road, which was within both GTM and ATM. So I was using most of the Ranger's 950kg payload capacity. Way outside the capabilities of the LC200.

Travelling so heavily laden is something I keep to a minimum. I usually prefer to fill with water close to the destination. The same for the extra fuel. But, it can do it when needed.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Sunday 24th of September 2023 09:25:10 AM

deverall11 · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
....
So how is the 580kg in the LC used up?
Towball weight: 340 (fully laden for travel with full water tanks, 3000kg ... about 11%)
2 passengers and personal items: 200
That's it. Just 40kg remaining. But with the same in the Ranger there is 545kg available.
...

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 23rd of September 2023 11:20:17 AM

In your calculations you forgot to add the fuel in the LC200. Full tank at a nominal 80% is roughly 110kg.

I do understand this need to be included in the payload.