I think..

aussie_paul · Guru

I think..

Eaglemax · Guru

Good post Aussie. Also how to stay safe, to get help and generally educate in those fields. Tony

smwhiskey · Senior Member

Its fast getting to the stage where all the "mandatory" classes that people are suggesting should happen in schools are preventing the classes that should be learned in school from actually happening....like reading and writing and basic maths

Magnarc · Guru

smwhiskey wrote:
Its fast getting to the stage where all the "mandatory" classes that people are suggesting should happen in schools are preventing the classes that should be learned in school from actually happening....like reading and writing and basic maths

'Tis my opinion that you have a good case there Simon. It appears to me that schools are that busy making sure that they keep up with modern day "trends" that the basics are being neglected to a large degree.

Sad to say but we are living in a rapidly becoming woke society which seems to believe that pulling down statues, gluing themselves to roads, and causing disruption to those who are just trying to earn a buck is the way to go. At the age of 86 I figure that I won't have to worry too much about them, but I fear for those who are to come in this world.

If I believed in a God then I would thank him/her ( got to be PC) that I was born when I was.

Cuppa · Guru

Magnarc wrote:
smwhiskey wrote:
Its fast getting to the stage where all the "mandatory" classes that people are suggesting should happen in schools are preventing the classes that should be learned in school from actually happening....like reading and writing and basic maths

'Tis my opinion that you have a good case there Simon. It appears to me that schools are that busy making sure that they keep up with modern day "trends" that the basics are being neglected to a large degree.
Sad to say but we are living in a rapidly becoming woke society which seems to believe that pulling down statues, gluing themselves to roads, and causing disruption to those who are just trying to earn a buck is the way to go. At the age of 86 I figure that I won't have to worry too much about them, but I fear for those who are to come in this world.
If I believed in a God then I would thank him/her ( got to be PC) that I was born when I was.

So ensuring that mental health is understood, & that todays kids will be able to function as a useful contributing member of society is a 'trend'?

At 86, things have changed a great deal since you were a kid Magnarc, (indeed since I was a kid & i'm 20 years behind you) & I expect you might agree, not for the better.

Kids today have far more external pressures to deal with. Many have not received the resources to manage this from their parents, who in turn maybe missed out from their parents.

Gone are the days where support from extended families was the norm - now it is the exception - for many reasons.

I agree 100% that schools should provide the basics, & paying attention to mental health, & building resilience in the kids must be at the top of the list to enable them to pick up the other basics , (the 3 R's if you like) with far improved concentration. This is far from 'Woke', it is about recognising the way the world & society has changed since you & I were kids.

Many more youngsters today are having to deal with the fallout of broken families, all are having to deal with regular stories about conflict, effects of global warming, & seeing the hatreds of modern living exposed. Life is far less innocent for kids than it once was.

You may not like some (any?) of their protesting behaviours, not all of it appeals to me, but I do recognise that those out there fighting for a cause are more likely than not to be the better contributing adults of the future, than those who may succumb to mental illness, addiction & self harm.

It's all too easy to dismiss that latter group as weaklings, losers etc, but they are the product of our society in increasing numbers & therefore I think it both perfectly reasonable & responsible to do our best to prepare them for life which will look quite different to ours.

Eaglemax · Guru

Cuppa wrote:
Magnarc wrote:
smwhiskey wrote:
Its fast getting to the stage where all the "mandatory" classes that people are suggesting should happen in schools are preventing the classes that should be learned in school from actually happening....like reading and writing and basic maths

'Tis my opinion that you have a good case there Simon. It appears to me that schools are that busy making sure that they keep up with modern day "trends" that the basics are being neglected to a large degree.
Sad to say but we are living in a rapidly becoming woke society which seems to believe that pulling down statues, gluing themselves to roads, and causing disruption to those who are just trying to earn a buck is the way to go. At the age of 86 I figure that I won't have to worry too much about them, but I fear for those who are to come in this world.
If I believed in a God then I would thank him/her ( got to be PC) that I was born when I was.
So ensuring that mental health is understood, & that todays kids will be able to function as a useful contributing member of society is a 'trend'?
At 86, things have changed a great deal since you were a kid Magnarc, (indeed since I was a kid & i'm 20 years behind you) & I expect you might agree, not for the better.
Kids today have far more external pressures to deal with. Many have not received the resources to manage this from their parents, who in turn maybe missed out from their parents.
Gone are the days where support from extended families was the norm - now it is the exception - for many reasons.
I agree 100% that schools should provide the basics, & paying attention to mental health, & building resilience in the kids must be at the top of the list to enable them to pick up the other basics , (the 3 R's if you like) with far improved concentration. This is far from 'Woke', it is about recognising the way the world & society has changed since you & I were kids.
Many more youngsters today are having to deal with the fallout of broken families, all are having to deal with regular stories about conflict, effects of global warming, & seeing the hatreds of modern living exposed. Life is far less innocent for kids than it once was.
You may not like some (any?) of their protesting behaviours, not all of it appeals to me, but I do recognise that those out there fighting for a cause are more likely than not to be the better contributing adults of the future, than those who may succumb to mental illness, addiction & self harm.
It's all too easy to dismiss that latter group as weaklings, losers etc, but they are the product of our society in increasing numbers & therefore I think it both perfectly reasonable & responsible to do our best to prepare them for life which will look quite different to ours.

Post of the year Cuppa.

In generations past they would hide the mentally ill away from visitors. Even my parents born around 1930 had mental illness as a closed topic, not that it was abnormal. Consider this-

Who of you all is appalled by the road toll? Nationally it was 1194 in 2022. (I can recall it being 1034 in 1972 just for Victoria alone) so we've reduced it a lot.

National suicides were 3249 in 2022. Nearly triple the road toll. In 1978 my older brother suicided, in 2001 my uncle the same. Why not talk about it... what's the secret? or humiliation?

As far as schooling goes I believe they should travel less on trips (parents responsibility) drop advanced mathematics and chemistry most of us never use and replace them with life issues, teaching responsibility, care, empathy, time management (eg less video games) and financial management. Probably a lot more.

But the numbers on suicides not to mention attempts that leave a person injured needs focus. It has nothing to do with "woke".

P.S. I've spent the last 10 years as a mental health advisor for a national organisation.

Tony

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Tuesday 3rd of October 2023 05:26:44 PM

Dick0 · Guru

Stick to basic schooling classes of the 3 R's and... good parenting.

Cuppa · Guru

Dick0 wrote:
Stick to basic schooling classes of the 3 R's and... good parenting.

I'm sure that those who can, will DickO.

Sadly there are many parents these day who never received good parenting themselves. A generational vicious cycle I believe is becoming an increasing problem in Australian society (& more broadly in many other western countries), for which we as a community have both a responsibility & a need to help with as best we can or we all end up paying a price we don't want.

It's not just broken families, & nuclear families without extended family support. It's other things that have changed in our society too. Work patterns, unemployment & uncertainty all play a part. To advocate 'good parenting' of course makes sense, but without the resources that growing numbers need but lack it won't happen & we as a community become part of a broader downward spiral. What is needed is community support because blaming & telling can't work. Through schools is just one aspect of something we all need to take responsibility for. In my humble opinion of course .... but like Eaglemax my view is formed from 'front line' experience.

-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 5th of October 2023 05:23:40 PM

dogbox · Guru

the good parenting question?

would the problem have any base in the fact that the government of the day had a policy of a baby bonus that was paid out in cash, to anyone who had a baby?
a lot of young girls had kids at their boyfriends' insistences or their own for the cash grab. these youngsters were not ready or equipped to look after/raise a family, drugs/ alcohol/abuse played a big role in the kids' lives who became totally dependent on welfare, we are now into the next generation.

what may have been a better policy would have been to refund the last year's tax paid by the family as a baby bonus minimizing the advantage of welfare depended people having children as a short-term cash grab.
to some that type of thinking maybe considered discriminating as those that could be considered higher income people would benefit the most, but as usual the cost would be less in the long run with less welfare payments, more kids growing up in more stable households with a minimizing of disadvantaged children needing to be removed from dysfunctional environments!

20 years ago things like mobile phones/laptops were just getting started now they control our lives with young kids barely able to walk dragging their IPADS everywhere what problems could that cause in the future; we can see that social media is controlling the kids' lives now with them doing things (some not to smart) just to post on line.

deverall11 · Guru

When I went to school the level of numeracy and literacy was nowhere near as low as it is these days.
But apparently the system was broken so had to be fixed????
How did we ever survive all this anxiety and mental health issues? By NOT having someone
tell us ad nauseam.
The old adage: you can convince someone of anything if its repeated enough times.
Phew, I need a Bex now.

Gundog · Guru

My POV is first off all mobile phones/tablets should be banned from schools full stop, no lame arsed excuses that little precious child needs one, then from grade 1-6 get back to the basics and that includes no calculators allowed for maths.

The Australian Curriculum includes: eight key learning areasEnglish, Mathematics, Science, Humanities and Social Sciences, Health and Physical Education, Languages, Technologies and the Arts drop all of this crap. and go back to the basics English (reading,writing and spelling), Mathematics (inc times tables), Geography, Aust History PE( the participation of playing sports) and Swimming.

And the most important facet is for teachers to teach not lecture, political, religious and sex should is not a place in in primary schools any teacher who brings them into the class room sould be sacked.

Magnarc · Guru

I reckon that kids of today have enough to worry about. Mental health is too important a subject to be discussed by teachers ( are they qualified professionals?) don't think so.

I know that there are some among us who have or have had, mental problems, or know someone who has, this being the case they rightly have strong views on the subject and I have a great deal of sympathy for their position but, imho, this is not something to be discussed in school unless it is carried out by those who are qualified to do so. It is very easy to create the wrong impression in young minds, and could end up causing more problems than it is trying to allay.

Since the cost of sending qualified people into schools would be prohibitive I doubt that this will ever be part of the curriculum.

dorian · Guru

Gundog wrote:
The Australian Curriculum includes: eight key learning areasEnglish, Mathematics, Science, Humanities and Social Sciences, Health and Physical Education, Languages, Technologies and the Arts drop all of this crap. and go back to the basics English (reading,writing and spelling), Mathematics (inc times tables), Geography, Aust History PE( the participation of playing sports) and Swimming.

Your formula lacks science and technology. This would produce a generation of dopes, albeit healthy ones.

STEM is the current focus in tertiary education, and it should also be the focus in primary and secondary education.

dogbox · Guru

not much point in pushing anything at school if there is no stable foundation from home side of things, all it takes is one disruptive child to test a teacher to the limit and the whole class suffers

dorian · Guru

Australia needs STEM companies like this one:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-09/ozempic-maker-novo-nordisk-becomes-biggest-company-in-europe/102812584

What do you think the biggest company in Denmark is?

It's a pharmaceutical company called Novo Nordisk.

This company's market cap is 10 times larger than Lego's. Its market cap is now sitting at $US427.4 billion ($670 billion), a figure larger than Denmark's annual GDP.

After a century plugging away making insulin and other drugs to treat diabetes, it has suddenly rocketed to become not just the most-valuable company in Denmark, but in all of Europe.

Gundog · Guru

I recall at sometime in primary school maybe grade 3 or 4, for english home work we had to learn or write a small poem.

Me being rather tardy at homework It took a hell of a lot to read books and I forget all about about it, come english lesson kids were called to say their poem out loud to the class, I didnt have much time to think of something as my surname starts with B.

My time arrives it wasnt a peom but I blurted out "Ned Ned the donkeys dead, Deid last night, I shot him in the head".

That went poorly but about 40 kid were all laughing at me or what the teacher said.

-- Edited by Gundog on Friday 6th of October 2023 04:25:43 PM

dorian · Guru

When I finished high school and went off to university to study science and engineering, I thought, great, now I'll never have to write another essay. How wrong I was.

I just wish the teaching of English literature would focus on contemporary authors rather than the boring old bard. Classics like Catch 22 and 1984 were so much more interesting and relevant than anything that Shakespeare wrote.

Wannabe nomad · Senior Member

While my experience of school was less than perfect with 45 in a class ending up with me going up to high school illiterate. I would hate to go to school today in this complex world, I think it would have been the end of me.

In my opinion teachers have enough to do already, but not all kids get what they need from home either, there has to be room for. Oh I don't know special assembly or increased pastoral care (which contaray to opinions does not preach, but is a safe place to go to be listened too) or call it a health class I DONT KNOW. A place and time where appropriately trained people come in and talk/listen to kids,
A place with no 'woke' agenda just open minded discussions, about 'whatever,' in a safe place. Mental health one week, self esteem, excepting everyone for who they are, being kind, showing empathy, being resilient, what ever is appropriate for that school, This could he done while the teachers get a chance to catch up on the ever increasing paperwork.

There is actually a program called 'play is the way' from W.A. that was talked about being rolled out in schools nationally , but it never happened.

All I know is if someone had stood me in front of a mirror when I was 10yrs old and said "take a look in the mirror Lucy, you are a unique individual, there is knowone in the world quite like you, that makes you very special indeed". If someone had given me some time and attention, and told me it was OK to be me. It could have made all the difference and maybe, just maybe, I would have made better life decisions and I wouldn't have lost a son to suicide, have a grand child who self medicates with illegal drugs, and 4 dysfunctional generations in my family, half who no longer talk to each other.

Izabarack · Guru

Gundog wrote:
My POV .....

Perhaps the problem is that adults and teachers rarely listen to the kids and find out their POV. Kids Helpline, for example only answers a tiny fraction of the calls made to the number. Nobody understands what is going on for a child if they don't first listen. I find that kids have access to all sorts of inappropriate and misleading infrormation when likely role models don't listen. Kids earching for someone who will listen to them turn to the virtual group so easily accessed through the technology that swamps them. Authoritian figures trying to impose past generation ideas on kids who are often much smarter than their parents, need to understand that their outmoded ideas are universally rejected by groups of kids sharing their experiences with the Peer Group. 'Influencers' on the readily accessible Internet, do have influence on the thinking and attitudes of most of the current generation. Old Farts telling them what they should think and do are ignored, Big Time. Boomers is a derogatory throw away term I hear from younger kids more and more as they look to their Social Group for acceptance and Self Esteem.

Cuppa · Guru

A fair bit of finger pointing going on in this thread. That finger pointing is at various 'them's. What about the us'. Nah couldn't possibly be could it.

dogbox · Guru

it would appear from the posts that are been posted a lot of people seem to think the school should be a substitute for parenting?

it would also appear that more than a few teacher wish to impart their beliefs into young minds, maybe we should try an keep things simple teach them to read, write, do arithmetic and leave the social engineering to specialists in the later years of schooling

Dick0 · Guru

dogbox wrote:
it would appear from the posts that are been posted a lot of people seem to think the school should be a substitute for parenting?

it would also appear that more than a few teacher wish to impart their beliefs into young minds, maybe we should try an keep things simple teach them to read, write, do arithmetic and leave the social engineering to specialists in the later years of schooling

X 2

Amen

Eaglemax · Guru

Was on a forum not long ago with young adults blaming boomers for them not affording to buy a house. So I had the suggestion to do as I did, join the Defence forces and after a time period a low interest home loan was available, not to mention- free medical and dental, low accommodation costs, heaps of allowances, careers choice, comraderie and so on. The questions/statements that came back were- but what about my friends?, can I take my mobile?, do I have to work at night time?, I dont like war....

Self explanatory.

Anyway my daughter was a teacher, art and math. She has said many times parents expect us to raise their child and following poor behaviour the parents rarely accept it and blame the teacher. Time for video cameras in classrooms lol

Tony

Cuppa · Guru

dogbox wrote:
it would appear from the posts that are been posted a lot of people seem to think the school should be a substitute for parenting?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Not me, although I thought I'd been fairly clear on that.
In case I wasn't or have been misinterpreted I will clarify.
Not a substitute - if that were what it was it would not be needed.
Rather a provision of something needed by children when parenting skills are either absent or are very poor.

Izabarack · Guru

Eaglemax wrote:
..... young adults blaming boomers for them not affording to buy a house. ..........
.........to do as I did, join the Defence forces

Young adults are currently dealing with the consequences of actions and attitudes of the Boomers. Lots of negatives could be listed, damage to the environment and the cost of housing are in that list of legacy problems the younger generations have to navigate every day. Traditional expectations of home ownership that were natural for the Boomers are out of reach for many 20 to 40 year olds trying to save up a deposit while paying rent at a mortgage rate.

Not everyone can join the Defence force. What may have worked for you, is available to a tiny portion of those in the younger demographic.

The Qld Courier Mail carried an article just yesterday detailing a promixal cause of some of the eating disorders we are seeing an increase in among 12 to 15 year olds. Kids connected on the Internet and interacting with similar aged peers are doing eating challenges and posting details of their starvation level diets looking for the validation that comes with multiple Likes. That's where their thinking is. Audlts brain development and maturation does not happen until around age 25. Anyone of older aged telling kids what they SHOULD be doing is completly out of touch and ignorant of what kids are going through.

dogbox · Guru

Izabarack wrote:

Eaglemax wrote:
..... young adults blaming boomers for them not affording to buy a house. ..........
.........to do as I did, join the Defence forces
Young adults are currently dealing with the consequences of actions and attitudes of the Boomers. Lots of negatives could be listed, damage to the environment and the cost of housing are in that list of legacy problems the younger generations have to navigate every day. Traditional expectations of home ownership that were natural for the Boomers are out of reach for many 20 to 40 year olds trying to save up a deposit while paying rent at a mortgage rate.
Not everyone can join the Defence force. What may have worked for you, is available to a tiny portion of those in the younger demographic.
The Qld Courier Mail carried an article just yesterday detailing a promixal cause of some of the eating disorders we are seeing an increase in among 12 to 15 year olds. Kids connected on the Internet and interacting with similar aged peers are doing eating challenges and posting details of their starvation level diets looking for the validation that comes with multiple Likes. That's where their thinking is. Audlts brain development and maturation does not happen until around age 25. Anyone of older aged telling kids what they SHOULD be doing is completly out of touch and ignorant of what kids are going through.

I know what I had to do to get into the housing market, the long hours I worked, the sacrifices I made, the things I did without.
all my kids got into the housing market, but not one grandchild has managed to make the move with the excuse it's too far removed, you had it easy, but I do notice none seem to have a second job, work any over time, or seem prepared to make sacrifices.

all they can do is play the cards their dealt.

Eaglemax · Guru

Izabarack wrote:
Eaglemax wrote:
..... young adults blaming boomers for them not affording to buy a house. ..........
.........to do as I did, join the Defence forces
Young adults are currently dealing with the consequences of actions and attitudes of the Boomers. Lots of negatives could be listed, damage to the environment and the cost of housing are in that list of legacy problems the younger generations have to navigate every day. Traditional expectations of home ownership that were natural for the Boomers are out of reach for many 20 to 40 year olds trying to save up a deposit while paying rent at a mortgage rate.
Not everyone can join the Defence force. What may have worked for you, is available to a tiny portion of those in the younger demographic.
The Qld Courier Mail carried an article just yesterday detailing a promixal cause of some of the eating disorders we are seeing an increase in among 12 to 15 year olds. Kids connected on the Internet and interacting with similar aged peers are doing eating challenges and posting details of their starvation level diets looking for the validation that comes with multiple Likes. That's where their thinking is. Audlts brain development and maturation does not happen until around age 25. Anyone of older aged telling kids what they SHOULD be doing is completly out of touch and ignorant of what kids are going through.

Clearly the industrial revolution began the greatest era of pollution and currently the Chinese and Indian countries continue to emit the most air pollution in the world, not baby boomers from the 1960's from country Victoria. India namely New Delhi has 25 times the ug/m3 recommended by the WHO. Those that wave the climate change catastrophe at Aussie baby boomers in a clear "blaming" fashion dont take into account what boomers grew up with. Your text suggests we boomers should have immediately fixed the climate change problem when in effect it only became apparent in the late 1970's and taken seriously much later. Maybe blame Generation X that came after boomers? Born 1965-1980 they would be late 40's now.What have they done to lower climate change effect? This blame game is fun. I noticed you dont have a biography, maybe you get worse economy thatn my SUV at 6L/100km towing 11.5L/100km... if so I blame you for the air pollution, How dare you- Greta cries.

" paying rent at a mortgage rate" mmm, funny that, while I had what they called a low interest defence service home loan ($25,000 with average interest at 7.5%) it wasnt enough to build a home as it had remained at $25k for 12 years. That came with a 2nd mortgage of $23,000 at a whopping 21% (thankyou Mr Keating). In fact we sold our first home to have children as we could not see any light at the end of the tunnel. What interest rate is it now again?

"Not everyone can join the defence force". Ok, I joined at 4 days past my 17th birthday. I was required to be healthy (as opposed to be fit). My education standard and choices dictated the type of field I would be mustered into. Do you know how many healthy young teenagers 17-19yo cant join due to their poor health? I'd say a small percentage. Unless you have data?

"Eating orders for 12-15yo". So now we are talking about young teens? Where did that topic change from my claims about "young adults"?. Maturation at 25yo, in my experience that age many look towards the dream of overseas travel, maybe a new car along with the debt (whereas we had bombs) and when they reach early 30's to begin saving for a home prices are even more further away than their reach why? because they didnt put a deposit on a block of land at 22yo, that money they saved for that overseas trip.

"what kids are going through". This sums up your mentality (along with "ignorance" to twist the knife a little rather than a healthy debate) We are not talking about kids!! We are talking about young adults, 17-30yo. That blame baby boomer for everything. How many young adults do you know that work 2-3 jobs. Well we did. Not only that, the www, video games etc are the recreation for after 5pm knock off time from their job. If they were serious finding an income to get ahead they would be working a 2nd, 3rd job not sitting on their butt doing these things. Just noticed Dogbox saying the same thing.

Tony

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Sunday 8th of October 2023 07:45:47 PM

dogbox · Guru

maybe it is our fault for making it look so easy?

Cuppa · Guru

dogbox wrote:
maybe it is our fault for making it look so easy?

I suspect there is a lot of truth in that, & the reality is that whilst we took some values from our parents, we also had it much easier than them.

Dick0 · Guru

dogbox wrote:
maybe it is our fault for making it look so easy?

We worked and saved and spent little on luxuries and had children earlier. Got the occasional fish & chips, drove older cars, went camping in tents on holidays and our first priority was to secure our own home. At age 26 had own home.

Children and Grand-children need to stay at Resorts for holidays, travel overseas, take-aways during the week, eat at expensive restaurants, new cars and expensive toys for children. Own home not a priority. Luxuries are priority.

In their late thirties and forties with endless huge mortgages and complain about everything. Were advised initially to quickly save deposit and secure own home as soon as possible.

Now they regret that they didn't listen and follow the advice.

I am spending the inheritance and enjoying it.