New tactics

peter67 · Guru

New tactics

Plain Truth · Guru

Nothing new,sign of the times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo-LIGTHZc8

rmoor · Senior Member

Don't start me.

We are wondering in our community just how bad it can get. Very bad is the consensus. Particularly when one section of the community appear to be the untouchables (and getting worse).

I was in Aldi today and there was a big guy in front of me with one young one in the trolley and another in his left arm, so the cradled kid wasn't very old.
The kid in his arms was behaving like a pork chop so he spoke strongly but softly to him to stop it.
The child slapped his father on the cheek. I was several paces behind but it was a pretty good connection and was loud enough.
The father paused and then warned the child they would have to leave and sit in the car if he did that again.

Poor fella, his hands are tied, if he disciplined the child in any way (particularly physical) and a goose was trailing him instead of me and dobbed him in to the authorities, then the father would be a shot duck. What the answer is I don't know, but it is a pretty bad look when a child can slap his father and get away with it. A friend with a child care operation tells me the current crop of kids are shockers. Great, a whole new generation coming !!!!!

I recall once I was stretched out on the lounge watching Combat or F troop or something and my mother asked me about three times to get in the bath before dinner. Nah, Nah, Nah. Then a long stony silence. I only had a little pair of footy shorts on and when that feather duster in my old mans hands (a former champion tennis player) came down at full tilt across the cheeks of my @r$e fully presented laying on my stomach with chin cusped in two hands enjoying my TV show and full of cheek to my mum, I squealed like a banshee.

My father said - don't you ever backchat your mother again.

My mother is now 96, I had lunch with her on Monday, and guess what, I have still have not back chatted her since. So, the only time my old man gave me a tap, it has stayed in play for around 56 years......

smwhiskey · Senior Member

rmoor wrote:
A friend with a child care operation tells me the current crop of kids are shockers. Great, a whole new generation coming !!!!!

I know people working in Before/After school care. Some of the things that the pre-teen kids are saying (comments of an extreme sexual and/or violent nature) to other kids and the educators makes me wonder just what is happening in these kids homes that they think stuff like that is normal.

rmoor · Senior Member

Yes, I second that e-motion.

My friend in child care also tells me the language she cops is absolutely disgraceful, in many cases from "good" families. I wonder if these kids are picking this stuff up off the "babysitters" at a really young age. Meaning the mobile phones the parents hand to the kids to shut them up when they are in a bad mood and behaving poorly in public.
Are these kids at a VERY young age getting access to stuff on the net that is detrimental???

dogbox · Guru

rmoor wrote:

Yes, I second that e-motion.

My friend in child care also tells me the language she cops is absolutely disgraceful, in many cases from "good" families. I wonder if these kids are picking this stuff up off the "babysitters" at a really young age. Meaning the mobile phones the parents hand to the kids to shut them up when they are in a bad mood and behaving poorly in public.

Are these kids at a VERY young age getting access to stuff on the net that is detrimental???

x2

the mobile phone (or more the miss use of social media) is responsible for a lot of the problems with young people, along with the generation of untouchables that get away with what ever they want then post as a challenge for others to better(or worse) the activity

in the past we may have had a small percentage (1-2%) of kids that were outside the norm of society that most were destined to spend time if not most of their lives incarcerated.
but with the days of, all rights, no responsibility that number seems to be increasing at an alarming rate, the police could probably identify the majority of the offenders as they are repeat offenders

banning mobile phones in schools is the first small step in the right direction

DMaxer · Guru

I don't know where some people get the idea that parents are not allowed to physically discipline their own children. Probably the same place they get the rest of the information they rely upon.

Physically disciplining a child, corporal punishment, is permitted in every state and territory in Australia. What is not permitted is causing physical harm and that has always been the case too. Years back teachers and principals would cane students but that was brought to a halt, first by only allowing principals to impose corporal punishment and then taking this option out as well. When one looks at some of the psychopaths hiding behind the cloak of teaching that were in the educational system, one can see why this step was needed.

I was pretty fortunate as a child. My old dad was a returned man and a copper after he returned. He was big on discipline and respect yet I cannot remember him ever hitting us kids. His manner was enough to frighten anyone so I guess he didn't have to rely on belting us. I was pretty lucky on the educational front to as although I only went to state schools, I had great teachers. Teachers that took us for sport, joined in for a chat at recess or lunch or kicked the football and bowled a few balls to us. The last thing that you would want to do would be to annoy them in class and anyway, most were pretty interesting in the subjects that they taught.

I look around at times and see people with their kids and it is obvious that the parent does not have a clue. The number that try to be a big sister or brother to their children instead of being a parent. I learned early in life that if I did what I was told to do then I got to do some pretty good things with dad. If I goofed off, I got to spend hours down the backyard weeding the garden instead of getting to play sport. I didn't need to be a cerebral giant to work out what was the best option.

I don't think the laws need strengthening as they are sufficient as they presently are, but I do think some of the people empowered with upholding and enforcing them are not up to the required standard. I will leave that as it is as I don't want the thread closed down.

When I was younger there were just as many no hopers and criminals around doing the same horrible things they do today. Life was so much slower then. Mum was at home, dad was at work and your backyard or friends' backyard or the street in front of your or their house was headquarters for the kids. Everyone had time for everyone and all the kids knew who lived in the street, their names and what they were like. Life has moved on from that and not everyone has been able to keep up with the herd unfortunately. All the beltings and floggings, gaoling and hangings won't bring that time back. Just don't ever forget, we are the parents and grandparents, teachers and mentors of this current crop.

dogbox · Guru

DMaxer parents may be able to discipline their children but they may find themselves in strife with the child protection people should the child wish to exercise their "rights" because they feel they have been hard done by!

back in the good old days when dad went to work an mum stayed home life was much simpler if you were lucky you had a TV in the house and everyone watched the same shows, now there could be 4-5 tv's in a house, one phone attached to wall (no secret conversations) now just about everyone over 10 has a phone some people 2 or three if you where rich you had one car in the family now most families have at least two ect ect ect times are changing. some of the people who make the rules think we live in a perfect world unfortunately we do not and if we keep lowering the bar that lowers everyone's standards.

DMaxer · Guru

Unfortunately Dogbox, that comment about being in trouble with child protection should a child exercise their rights is just total tripe. There are no rights to exercise. Have a look at the Crimes Act or the Criminal Code in each state and Territory of Australia and it is stated that parental punishment is not an abuse or an assault unless it is carried out to an extreme where actual injuries occur. Always has been that way, nothing has changed.

I know, you heard it on a talk back show or uncle Rupert's TV show so it has to be right. The only time it becomes an abuse or an assault is when it is excessive and causes injury. That has always been the law as well. Parents can chastise a child with corporal punishment but like every other citizen, no one has the right to inflict injury unless it is in the form of self defence and the same rules apply there.

Perhaps you might like to name one case, just one, where a parent has been charged or had child protection intervene because the gave their child a slap during a bout of bad behaviour. I have been in the criminal law jurisdiction for over forty years and never seen it happen, simply because it doesn't. I have seen parents charged with assaulting a child however. that occurred when a parent flogged a child with a car radio antenna and the child was hospitalised but that is an entirely different scenario.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Thursday 8th of February 2024 12:43:35 PM

Are We Lost · Guru

I believe DMaxer is correct that it is not against the law to smack your child. Of course that means something that just hurts for a while but does not cause any injury.

However, when searching online just now for "Can I smack my child?" there are many links from organisations that recommend against it and point to psychological harm that may be caused. I think we (society/parents in general) have taken this ethic too far. I see a huge difference between frequently beating a child and giving a small physical punishment. Typically, these articles do not make such a distinction.

At school of course, any form of physical punishment is banned, and this coincides with much more disruptive classrooms than when we went to school. Is the lack of corporal punishmnet the main reason? Probably not, but certainly a contributor. Children need to learn at an early age that punishment is immediate and undesirable enough that they will modify their behaviour. This needs to happen early before a mischievous attitude evolves into troublesome.

I think there are worse punishments than smacking that are not disallowed. By the beach one day I witnessed a pre teen boy who had apparently said something to his grandmother. His father strode up and stood towering over the boy to aggressively show his dominance. With clenched fists as if he was about to punch, he gave the young boy a severe reprimand, shouted so loudly that people probably 50 metres away turned to look.

From his looks (yeah I know) I could imagine his Harley parked nearby, so I chose not to intervene, rather than finding myself lying on the concrete. Everybody else nearby also chose the safer option.

Not illegal.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 8th of February 2024 01:32:30 PM

smwhiskey · Senior Member

Are We Lost wrote:
Not illegal.

Only legal if you are deemed to have used "reasonable force". Of course, such a subjective term will never be abused by the self appointed guardians of society who whinge about the lack of discipline in todays youth but will also happily report a parent for smacking a child (and post it on social media)

And yes I did know somebody who has had a visit from CPS for smacking their child. Was reported by their Child Care Centre.

-- Edited by smwhiskey on Thursday 8th of February 2024 01:57:52 PM

DMaxer · Guru

I think it would be pretty obvious that if a child care centre reported someone then an injury must have been sustained and also visible.

I don't think little Johnny telling his child care worker that he got a smack from mum would result in the cavalry being summoned. I think child care centres also have a duty to report injuries that are observed that do not have an apparent cause.

I don't know if classrooms today are any better behaved than when I attended school. I found the most disruptive classes occurred when a teacher either was unsuitable in the role or incompetent in teaching. Most of my classes were well behaved because the teachers were interesting and showed a real interest in us both inside and outside the classroom.

A friend of mine who is in the teaching game told me that the kids weren't the problem, it was the whinging parents who couldn't understand or accept that their kids weren't exactly the reincarnation of Einstein.

I have from time to time attended high schools in pretty tough areas at the invitation of the school to assist with their legal studies classes. I would get the odd smart ar$e but nothing that was offensive or rude. I found that the kids were really clued up and knowledgeable. I would run in to a few now and then out in the street or at the shopping centre and they were always up for a chat either about sport or what had been happening. I admire the kids of today. They have it far tougher than we ever did.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Friday 9th of February 2024 11:28:47 AM

-- Edited by DMaxer on Friday 9th of February 2024 11:34:36 AM

Whenarewethere · Guru

In China they have 3d facial recognition identification in shops. If you are not identified you can't get into the store to start with. Then you have credit limit attached to person.

The system recognises & documents all products you take them off the shelf.

The technology has been there for years, can't see why a high security gate can't be combined with continual 3d scanning for product removal.

Might be also worth looking at it for affluent suburbs!

Whenarewethere · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
A friend of mine who is in the teaching game told me that the kids weren't the problem,

Wifey was a teacher.

Anyway a male friend who taught in a girls school. Often the girls would wear no undies & would sit in a revealing position.

He said on those day he would teach the class of girls from the back of the classroom, so there was a minimal possibility of accusations to looking.

dogbox · Guru

DMaxer wrote:

Unfortunately Dogbox, that comment about being in trouble with child protection should a child exercise their rights is just total tripe. There are no rights to exercise. Have a look at the Crimes Act or the Criminal Code in each state and Territory of Australia and it is stated that parental punishment is not an abuse or an assault unless it is carried out to an extreme where actual injuries occur. Always has been that way, nothing has changed.
I know, you heard it on a talk back show or uncle Rupert's TV show so it has to be right. The only time it becomes an abuse or an assault is when it is excessive and causes injury. That has always been the law as well. Parents can chastise a child with corporal punishment but like every other citizen, no one has the right to inflict injury unless it is in the form of self defence and the same rules apply there.
Perhaps you might like to name one case, just one, where a parent has been charged or had child protection intervene because the gave their child a slap during a bout of bad behaviour. I have been in the criminal law jurisdiction for over forty years and never seen it happen, simply because it doesn't. I have seen parents charged with assaulting a child however. that occurred when a parent flogged a child with a car radio antenna and the child was hospitalised but that is an entirely different scenario.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Thursday 8th of February 2024 12:43:35 PM

"just total tripe" quoted and noted. others have posted their experiences so I would hope we all have not been watching UNCLE RUPERT'S TV SHOW

I also note that a lot of your comments are prefixed with "I think"

when It comes to the family and children's courts they are closed and what happens in there is not for public scrutiny, basically you do as you are told because they (child protection people)
have total authority with no redress except to the minister and the minister refers the mater back to the people whose actions you are questioning. some of the people who work in that area can be a bit overwhelmed by the power they have and it can be miss used

are you suggesting that children have no rights?

smwhiskey · Senior Member

DMaxer wrote:
I think it would be pretty obvious that if a child care centre reported someone then an injury must have been sustained and also visible.
I think child care centres also have a duty to report injuries that are observed that do not have an apparent cause.

1. No. According to the story we were told, an employee apparently saw the smack and reported it without even checking on the kid. CPS did their check and no further action was taken against the parent. Point is, there are people out there who will report it as child abuse. After all, most peoples knowledge of the law is based on what they get told from their friends.

2. You'd like to think so and theres a Duty of Care requirement to report any such injuries but some don't always do so because they just don't want to get involved. HAving been there I can understand that. Consider that most (if not all) family daycare centres are literally a single person operations, the last thing you want when you're on your own is to have some angry (possibly drunk, possibly drugged) person threatening violence against you, your family and the daycare kids in your charge because you followed the law to the letter and reported something.

DMaxer · Guru

They dont have total authority Dogbox. There is a right of appeal to the District or County Court in all child care matters. I know because I have conducted many myself. I know what goes on because I have a right of appearance when representing in those matters. Care to share with us your qualifications and experience in the practice of law?

DMaxer · Guru

If it is a registered day care centre it comes under Departmental control and so it is mandatory to report SMWhisky.

dogbox · Guru

DMaxer wrote:

They dont have total authority Dogbox. There is a right of appeal to the District or County Court in all child care matters. I know because I have conducted many myself.
I know what goes on because I have a right of appearance when representing in those matters.
Care to share with us your qualifications and experience in the practice of law?

the cost of doing that is prohibitive and it is very hard to find a lawyer to represent you against a government dept in their own backyard so to speak.

you maybe seeing things from the inside but if you were on the other side looking in, it may look a bit different. i can only talk from my personal experiences and to be honest i have never heard of a child care matter being delt with in a district or county court. I was informed that in the state of NSW there are only 5 or 6 magistrates(legal persons?) who deal with child care matters and most of the to and fro takes place Infront of a registrar in the back room, the magistrates basically sign off on what has been decided there.

smwhiskey · Senior Member

DMaxer wrote:
If it is a registered day care centre it comes under Departmental control and so it is mandatory to report SMWhisky.

Having spent almost 10 years having a Family Day Care centre operating under my roof, I am fully aware of that (and a lot of other crap that happens). But is the Department and/or Police going to protect the (potentially solo) worker from violent retaliation from an upset parent? I seriously doubt it. Or at least not till its too late.

Sometimes you have to make that (moral) call about whether to report or not report. If an injury obviously the result of abuse then without a doubt most would report it. When its not so obvious (as so many are) most won't.

Fortunately we no longer have to worry about it having left the industry due to poor pay, over regulation, and horrible kids. (amongst other things)

DMaxer · Guru

Sorry to tell you Dogbox but you are once again completely wrong. Child Care matters are dealt with in the Childrens Court before a Magistrate. The Department is represented by a lawyer, the parents of the child either jointly or individually have legal representation, any other interested party is afforded an appearance and representation and the child is also legally represented. If the child is too young to give instructions to the lawyer the court appoints a guardian ad litem. The lawyer representing the child or children is in a unique position as he is independent even of instructions. He or she informs the court of the child's wish and then can also give an independent view of what is in the best interests. The whole process is sound recorded and copies of the transcript are available to parties. The costs of the representation is met by Legal Aid paid to the private practitioners appearing.

As far as practitioners taking on government officials, it happens everyday. Who do you think runs the DPP>

As far as the Departmental officers involved in the proceedings they are merely witnesses and have no control or say over how the proceedings are run or the end result. If any parties, including the child, is dissatisfied with the final ruling an appeal is made for hearing de novo in the District Court. The registrar has no judicial function outside of listing the matter for a hearing, which is an administrative function. There is no power for the registrar to make rulings that are signed off by a magistrate. That is totally untrue. That is just total ignorance on your part as it doesn't happen. How the proceedings are run is all set out in the legislation. Before any hearing however, there are always discussions between the parties as to how a matter may be resolved or shortened by mutual admission of certain evidence but these discussions are confidential between the parties and not admissible in evidence during a hearing.

As far as the number of Children's Court magistrates in NSW there are some that sit in this jurisdiction exclusively whilst outside the metropolitan area the local court magistrates also sits in this jurisdiction. All magistrates can hear Childrens Court matters. When a child matter comes on the magistrates simply announces he is closing the local court, opening the Children's Court and excludes anyone who is not associated with the matter whilst it is being either mentioned or heard. At the completion that court is closed and the magistrate resumes the Local Court.

Before I entered private practice I was a court registrar for years so I am fully aware of how matters are run. Just for your personal information there is no court (other than the High Court) who cannot have their decisions reviewed. There is no decision by a public servant that cannot be reviewed unless stated in the legislation such as some immigration matters unless it is illegal. Even getting booted out of your local golf club by the committee is subject to legal review. There are no Star Chambers in Australia.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Saturday 10th of February 2024 10:28:16 AM

-- Edited by DMaxer on Saturday 10th of February 2024 10:47:50 AM

dogbox · Guru

as I said before I can only refer to my own experiences and what may look to be perfect by the people working in the system, someone on the outside does not see it as such!

the system as it is does not seem to be working or getting results as it should, what happens can not be reported so the same things keep happening.

as far as legal aid goes if you do not qualify you may have a lawyer present at court expense but it would be who ever happen to be on duty at that moment.

getting back to the subject of kids running amuck an doing as they please, because they are basically untouchable, what can be done to make them accountable?

dorian · Guru

We need to bring back the old style of school discipline.

https://youtu.be/yXJRI8dzsEw?t=175

-- Edited by dorian on Saturday 10th of February 2024 11:42:40 AM