I spend a lot of time in the bush collecting firewood,seen guy with a few snakes putting on show once ,what I learned was the best thing was to wear gum boots in the bush they usually strike low and the fangs cant penetrate the boot,second thing is carry a good bandage .

Mike Harding wrote:

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My understanding is that some snakes can go through an army boot?

Who's game to put it to the test? :)

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 Not me! ;)

Mike Harding wrote:

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My understanding is that some snakes can go through an army boot?

Who's game to put it to the test? :)

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 The snakes in Australia, being of the class elapid, have fixed fangs and they are quite short.  The length of fang is between 3 and 5 mm, usually around the 3mm mark.  This means that they generally can't go through thick clothing such as padded jeans or boots. The idea of snakes biting through boots and such comes from the pit vipers which are in other parts of the world.

Because the snakes in Australia have short fangs the venom only goes into the lymph system unless you are very unlucky, so a compression bandage will buy you heaps of time if you do it right and are careful. The ones with squares are a brilliant invention and definitely worth having in your first aid kid.

However the first line of defense that I have in my first aid kit is a TENS unit as in Trans-cutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation unit. I use it mainly for insect bites and stings, and it works very rapidly to get rid of the pain and to reverse the inflammation. You can use other devices such as a cattle prod (or stun gun), electric fence charger or small engine spark ignition system, but I find the TENS unit is cheap, easy to store in a kit and it is legal everywhere.

The DC charge uses a process called electrostretching to dismember the proteins in the venom. It essentially grabs the molecules and tears them apart. An Italian group between 2007 and 2011 showed that it only took 7 volts at 0.7 mA directly across the venom to denature the metalloproteinaise enzymes and the Phospholipase A2 enzymes which are common among all different kinds of venom and act as a kind of catalytic activator. They tested it against a hens egg embrio and showed inactivation of the venom. They didn't test shocking through the skin but there have been lots of field accounts, which have shown that if you use a higher voltage across the skin at around a few milliamps it will inactivate the venom quite well in people and large pets. I have used this method with success, and I have quite a few friends who have used this method with great success using different devices, with everything from snake bite to brown recluse and bee stings.

When I tell people about this treatment, they often want to talk about the "studies" which seem to indicate that it doesn't work, and I too was puzzled by that many years ago. But when I started to actually read the studies I found that most of them were full of assumptions and had a poor scientific method which was the cause of the negative results. Rats and mice are normal prey for snakes and it is impossible for them to get a non-fatal exposure to snake venom even if you shock the animal or not. The venom works instantly because small animals like that have no mechanism for quarantining toxins and slowing their progress through the body like we have. This means that the venom goes systemic and the damage kills the animal because of the initial exposure, even if you inactivate the venom afterwards. There has been some good research done out there which shows that it can work, but more needs to be done to establish it for medicine. In the field though there have been missionaries who have used it for years and I even have a friend who says that he can watch the swelling reduce in a tight swollen limb as the skin wrinkles again after the shock has been applied.

Anyway I thought I would share some of my experience, perhaps it will benefit someone one day. Actually many more people die in this country from bee stings than snake bites, and this method works like a charm against bee stings and prevents the anaphylaxis which can kill. Oh and with the TENS units people usually turn it up as high as they can stand (on continuous mode) and put it across the bite region for 30 minutes. With the other devices you shock using a ground contact (say to the engine chassis) and the spark plug lead, to provide two contacts across the bite site, just pulling the start cord to produce the shock. 6 - 8 shocks usually does the trick, sometimes more is needed, if the pain returns later on. It is not recommended by some if you have a pacemaker though, although I believe that TENS units are considered safe so long as you keep them away from the chest with a pacemaker... if you have one I would check with the doc first to see if you can use a TENS unit safely...

-- Edited by Macgyver on Tuesday 20th of March 2018 09:29:13 AM

-- Edited by Macgyver on Tuesday 20th of March 2018 09:29:29 AM

Macgyver wrote:

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One other thing, some people have claimed in the past that this only works on haemotoxic snake venom, that is not true. I know or have talked to people who have used this method successfully on Mambas, Cobras, Fur-de-lance, Bush Masters, Pigmy Rattlers, and I know that it has been used on Kraits as well. These cover all the types of snake venom that I know of, and it worked equally well, because the venoms of most creatures use the A2 group of proteins which are inactivated in the same way. There are other proteins which are probably being inactivated just as well, but have not been individually studied.

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Certainly sounds to me you know your subject Macgyver, you will learn quickly on this forum that no matter your level of expertise, others will provide mountains of anecdotal evidence that will prove you wrong.

Santa wrote:

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Certainly sounds to me you know your subject Macgyver, you will learn quickly on this forum that no matter your level of expertise, others will provide mountains of anecdotal evidence that will prove you wrong.

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 LOL yes, well it is all good conversation and in the end not everyone agrees, the main thing is that we all treat each other with respect even if we don't agree...

Hi John... Guess you couldn't, but that is what makes life interesting

The docsdetecting site is actually not a debunking site, the guy sells stun guns which have been modified for lower voltage and he has had a huge amount of positive feedback from the devices that he sells. He puts the other data up there so he can seem balanced and he is in effect covering his rear.

These days when you talk about this subject there are lots of Peter quoting Paul who quoted James... and James never used it in the real world... you get the idea... the information is either baseless opinion or it is quoting poorly done scientific studies. The more modern studies are ignored.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21800403 (final of several studies showing the inactivation of venom using DC)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3153198/  (summary of the state of snake bite research and how venom is broken down by low voltage charges)

You will notice that in the final link Morelli states that electric shock treatment is not recommended due to the lack of study in the field, he doesn't say it doesn't work (he has proven it has) but that is just why it isn't officially recommended.

I have actually had the benefit of learning about this in the US while I was living there and found that it did work, so I started to study it and to talk to people who had used it.  I got to know the Dr Guderian who first made this method public and he was involved in the program in Equador where this was used for 30 years with success.  The data for even a short part of that time is rather impressive. 

I laugh when I read about the "experts" suggesting that the successes of electric shock treatment of snake bite was as the result of dry bites.  This is because a dry bite doesn't cause pain so strong you could pass out or swelling that makes your leg or hand look like a balloon, it doesn't normally cause headaches, blurred vision and vomiting.... these are the things that the people who I know personally have seen before they treated the majority of bites.  I personally don't consider it a successful treatment of snake bite unless the person had severe swelling and pain. 

The big question for me isn't the question of "Why isn't there more scientific evidence", but why the latest research has been ignored and not taken further.  I know that it works and many of my friends know that it works because we have all used it in bites which were not dry bites with incredible success, I just wish that more research was done because I know that it saves lives and the shock which is given is no more than what you get from an electric fence.  Electric fences have been around for years and will not harm anyone's heart, they were designed with that in mind. The basic system to treat snake bite has the same electric profile as a fence charger and is safe as houses, and actually uses less power than a fence charger.

Mike Harding wrote:

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Dunno about you guys but I'll take the advice of the Australian Venom Research Unit of Melbourne University over *anyone* else - they know a bit about this area:

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Things you should never do after snake bite
NEVER wash the wound, apply hot or cold packs, cut the wound, use ligatures or tourniquets, apply electric shocks, and do not suck the wound or use suction from any device.
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http://biomedicalsciences.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/2011007/Snakebite_firstaid_ANG_AVRU.pdf

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That is ok Mike, by all means take their advice, the chances of you getting a snake bite are pretty small anyway.  But even though the venom unit and all other medical authorities don't endorse it doesn't mean that they have studied it, or experimented with it

In any area of medicine if you have studied the history of medicine, there is great opposition to radically different advancements such as antiseptic surgery, bacteriology, sterilization, etc. All these things we take for granted today, but back when they were first proposed and researched they were strongly opposed and even ridiculed.  More research needs to be done in this area for sure, and most of these medical authorities are just playing it safe as can be expected.

Unfortunately we can't play it safe when we are in the outback, half a day away from help or more, or in a country where there is no help at all.  It is fine to go by the venom unit guidelines when you are around the city or regional centers where you are able to get help, but where there is no chance of help and the option is to die or suffer great bodily destruction in your survival, many have chosen to give themselves a good shocking from their motorbike or stun gun, and it has worked.

All I can suggest to the doubters is to try it on a bee sting or wasp sting which you are much more likely to get than a snake bite, and you will find that it works.  The same groups of proteins are in those venoms as many snake venoms.  At least you will realise that there is possibly something to this... as I have found. Happy traveling!

-- Edited by Macgyver on Tuesday 20th of March 2018 08:08:24 PM

Gday...

I jest might join

Cheers - John

Mike, I am not trying to step on toes or to disrespect the medical profession. I am not rejecting the whole scientific process, I embrace it.  However nearly 7 years have passed since the final successful research of the Italian group was published and not one researcher has picked up the baton. The team were strongly encouraged to discontinue their work by what could only be termed the "Medical Establishment" and I realise that could be a bit unbelievable to some... but that is the truth.  There were trials which a friend of mine was in the final stages of organizing and the money for them was caused to be pulled by a specific group of interested parties who would not exactly benefit from the effectiveness of this method becoming accepted.  Greed knows no profession or country it is the same wherever you go.

I am not saying that this is the attitude for the majority of researchers, but it is a definite factor with some.  And how many researchers when presented with this information that I have given here have done the scientific thing and tried it out with a bee sting just to see if it works... well none that it know of, and that is the true scientific method.  They always go to google or pubmed and then browse over some abstracts of poorly done research and say "See it doesn't work" and leave it at that... no more science has been done than can be done from the average arm chair.  So many people let others do their own thinking and reasoning for them these days instead of being open minded and testing things for themselves, in this case trying it if they get a wasp or bee sting.  They assume that the research must be right, but there is good and bad research, with the editor of The Lancet recently declaring that over half of the published research done in the US and abroad is either misleading or false for the benefit of the medical industry. But a staggering fact which the British government has been investigating recently as a major scientific crisis.

The truth is that those who like to keep an open mind and think things through for themselves, end up trying it out and finding that it works.  Those who don't, just assume that it doesn't work and I guess that they must think that people like me are deluded and spouting lies.  That is fine, I don't expect everyone to be as open minded as me or to believe me, that is not the calling that we all have.  I have simply shared what I have proven for myself and what my friends have tried in the mission field and found to save many lives in the face of certain death; in the hope that some others may find it of use and perhaps a life may be saved one day.

You don't really have to convince me of anything, I already know what has happened and is happening in this area of medical study, and I know that the people who say that it should not be done and doesn't work are simply wrong.