Snake bite.

Macgyver · Member

Snake bite.

rockylizard · Guru

Macgyver wrote:
SNIP~~~I use those clickers too and they are great for small stuff, but when they don't work I have to go to a fence charger etc. to deactivate the venom.

Cheers, Tim.

Gday..

So that gives some indication of why you appear so knowledgeable about this subject - you have personally had multiple snake bites from venomous snakes and been saved by the application of the electric shock - using a 'fence charger'.

Cheers - John

Leo · Senior Member

This thread is nothing without photos. Leave out the snakes, wouldn't do to cause emotional stress to a serpent, that would not be PC at all.

Macgyver · Member

rockylizard wrote:
So that gives some indication of why you appear so knowledgeable about this subject - you have personally had multiple snake bites from venomous snakes and been saved by the application of the electric shock - using a 'fence charger'.

I detect a slight bit of cynicism in your comment John ... or my detector is broke wink .

Anyway, the reason I am "so knowledgeable" about this is because I have dealt with certainly fatal snake bite in pets and have seen the change after administering shock. I used to work with a Veterinarian and so I know what I am dealing with and know the changes. I have read all the research, good and bad which has been done in this area and have researched and confirmed first hand accounts from all over the globe. I have friends who have used this with themselves and others with snake bite, spider bite, and other bites and stings. I know medical professionals personally who have helped to pioneer this field of research and treatment and have discussed their research and testing, published and unpublished. Friends of mine have personally used fence chargers, outboard motors, cattle prods, a hand crank unit with a small magneto in it and TENS units as well as the V-Zap. I used the hand crank unit and have used it for copperhead venom, scorpion stings, bee stings, Yellow Jacket stings, spider bites. It has worked perfectly in every case. I have also used the small clickers, TENS units and when my other devices were broken or unavailable I used a fence charger. They all work equally well against snake venom and other kinds of bites and stings.

I would venture to say that no one here knows someone or has talked to someone else who has personally tried this method. Let alone someone who has tried it and had it fail, and yet some are so quick to believe that I am telling Furphys just because the current guidelines say it shouldn't be used or that not enough research has been done to show if it is effective. And I am not only saying that it has worked for me and my friends, but given links to research which shows that it can be broken down with quite low voltages. I handle the truth with great care, but some may think that is a lie too... I guess it comes down to how much faith you put in the infalibility of the old negative published research and how much of a ring of truth you think I have. When you do the research there are so many positive reports from the third world, from Dr. Carl Osborn, Dr. Stan Abrams (who have both published their successful case studies in respected journals) Dr. Ron Guderian who has been part of a 30 year successful program of treating snake bite with this method in Equador, and countless successful reports from missionaries around the world who's only desire is to help people. They want to save lives and couldn't care less if they are following "protocol" from a set of experts who are never without medical help when they need it.

This is a picture of a Dog belonging to a friend in Colorado. It was bitten by a rattler and you can see by the swelling that it was not a dry bite. They have a lot of rattlers on their property and their dogs have been saved several times by shocking. When there is swelling the pain from a shock is not as noticeable I have found... it still hurts though biggrin

dog before.png

The dog was shocked with a hot shot cattle prod 8 times and this is how it looked later on that day or the next day.

dog after.png

This is the shocking device which we used on the farm in the US. It is a weed eater magneto with a gear and a hand crank, delivering the shock to the leads.

Wade Machine.jpg

Macgyver · Member

I don't have many photos of before and after bites, but I had these handy and seeing I was asked for pictures.... here are some more. biggrin This horse was owned by the same friend and was bitten by a quite large rattler. The horse was really sick when they found it, gave it shocks two different times in the same day and it recovered with no necrosis of the bite and all swelling gone down. If you know rattler bites you will understand that these animals did not have a standard outcome from being bitten.

Horse 1.png

Close up of the bite area and swollen lip etc.

Horse 2.png

Picture of the same horse 5 days later, you can see the pink spot on the nostril where one fang mark was. The lip and face are now normal with no tissue damage.

horse 3.png

-- Edited by Macgyver on Wednesday 21st of March 2018 02:10:20 PM

Mike Harding · Guru

I suspect there is little point in arguing with the true believer but even a couple of minutes Googling this area turns up negatives. This woman has a PhD and lots of other letters I don't understand and is from the College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Illinois:

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The following commonly touted measures are ineffective and can be potentially harmful: use of ice, cold packs, or sprays; incision and suction; tourniquets; electric shock; hot packs; and delay in presentation for medical treatment (waiting until problems develop).

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https://www.msdvetmanual.com/toxicology/snakebite/overview-of-snakebite

As an electronics engineer of many years - I am interested (well... not much to be honest) how you are able to be sure the current (and what proportion of it) takes a path through the venom? And, especially, the high frequency currents which, as you would know I'm sure, have a tendency to exhibit a "skin effect". The HF will, of course, be present in the fast rising edges of such things as electric fence, cattle prod and stun gun HV generators.

Macgyver · Member

Mike Harding wrote:
"I suspect there is little point in arguing with the true believer but even a couple of minutes Googling this area turns up negatives. This woman has a PhD and lots of other letters I don't understand and is from the College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Illinois:"

----------------

Mike, your comment seems to be telling me several things, please correct me if I misread you, 1) that you assume that simply because this lady has letters after her name and is a member of the College of Veterinary Medicine in Illinois, and has given a recommendation for snake bite treatment; that she has personal positive knowledge that this doesn't work. 2) that you are essentially saying that I am deluded and that the medical recommendations are all based on sound exhaustive research.

Neither of these things are correct, I used to work for a member of the board of regents of a veterinary organization. The depth of knowledge which is coming from the vet colleges these days is shocking and the same is to be said for many of the schools of medicine. My vet had 50 years under his belt and was shocked by the small mindedness of many of the new vets who wouldn't even consider as valid many of the alternative treatments which he had found to be effective over his 50 years. Medical people these days are so concerned about litigation that they will only recommend things which they understand to have been exhaustively tested in the lab and proven without a shadow of a doubt... in other words they are cautious by nature. The vet has not tried it for herself and I doubt that she would have looked in depth at the research which is out there, good and bad. These people are busy and read a few abstracts, recommend against it out of caution and go on with the things that they consider to be much more important and interesting leaving the discussions and research to the "Venom Experts".

It is sad, but that is the actual state of affairs and the way that our system works these days. I am a "true believer" in the proper sense simply because I have proven that it works to myself and others, I have read the research and talked with some of the researchers themselves. I know why some tests failed and why it actually works as has been published in an international prestigious toxicology journal, the links to which I have already shared.

They have stopped saying that it doesn't work and now say that due to lack of further research we cannot recommend it. Or some still simply say don't do it with no qualification or explanation.

To answer your other question, the effects of surface resistance on the skin breaks down rather quickly with the increase of voltage through voltage tunneling. It passes into the lymphatic, fat and muscle layers which have less resistance and which therefore conduct the charge better. All layers are exposed to voltage of different levels, but because of the tissue resistance you need to supply a higher voltage to the skin so that after it is reduced by the internal resistance you still have enough ionic charge to tear apart the venom. Which was shown in the link I previously shared, to be 7volts at 0.7mA across the venom pocket. If you imagine it as an array of resistors of different amounts in parallel you will begin to get the idea.

-- Edited by Macgyver on Wednesday 21st of March 2018 02:45:42 PM

-- Edited by Macgyver on Wednesday 21st of March 2018 02:58:51 PM

-- Edited by Macgyver on Wednesday 21st of March 2018 04:53:49 PM

Possum3 · Guru

I could be cynical and say that it is an "Absolute Fact" that a witch doctor pointing a bone has definitely caused the death of the believer in many recorded cases here and in New Guinea, despite the fact there is medical proof of the ineffectiveness of such spells.

I will just finish up by reiterating that there is an approved methodology for Snake Bite clearly prescribed and to vary from that procedure MAY lead to Legal consequences.

FINIS.

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

dead horse.jpg

Cheers - John

Macgyver · Member

Thanks guys, I hope I don't meet you on the road, you are effectively calling me a liar. I don't appreciate your attitude..... Disagreeing is one thing, ridicule is another.... Definitely not what I expected from this forum. I will think twice before sharing knowledge with you that I have which can save someone's life in the future. Good day.

aussie_paul · Guru

Macgyver wrote:
Thanks guys, I hope I don't meet you on the road, you are effectively calling me a liar. I don't appreciate your attitude..... Disagreeing is one thing, ridicule is another.... Definitely not what I expected from this forum. I will think twice before sharing knowledge with you that I have which can save someone's life in the future. Good day.

I am open to any new information that may eventually become mainstrean as has happened many time over the years.

Aussie Paul. smile

dogbox · Guru

i'm sure if someone of little faith was standing in a paddock miles from any help an got bitten by a venomous reptile an there happen to an electric fence near by they would be setting themselves up to be ZAPPED now that they have been made aware of the potential of a remedy at hand

Mike Harding · Guru

Macgyver wrote:
Thanks guys, I hope I don't meet you on the road, you are effectively calling me a liar. I don't appreciate your attitude..... Disagreeing is one thing, ridicule is another.... Definitely not what I expected from this forum. I will think twice before sharing knowledge with you that I have which can save someone's life in the future. Good day.

Oh don't go all girly on us - you came on here espousing a miracle cure (that science doesn't accept) for a fatal reptile bite and you don't like it because we didn't all fall down and bask in your wisdom.

Science doesn't work that way and solutions are not true because you, or anyone else, says they are - you have to provide proof which is done via mathematical analysis or irrefutable empirical evidence - you have not provided either. Your say-so and a few jpegs of sick dogs and horses is not sufficient which is why the high quality links I have provided *specifically* say *don't do* what you suggest.

And good day to you too sir.

dogbox · Guru

someone whose dog got bitten by a brown snake an was in a bad way gave it a massive dose of vitamin D an the dog was up an about the next day
I don't know if the vitamin D is a recognized remedy for snake bite in dogs but their dog pulled thru and they are now believers

Dickodownunder · Guru

Macgyver wrote:
Thanks guys, I hope I don't meet you on the road, you are effectively calling me a liar. I don't appreciate your attitude..... Disagreeing is one thing, ridicule is another.... Definitely not what I expected from this forum. I will think twice before sharing knowledge with you that I have which can save someone's life in the future. Good day.

Unfortunately Macgyver this happens with predictive repeatability on this forum.

If it is not insinuated that the member is telling lies then the topic is generally dragged so far off topic that it borders on the rediculous and becomes so uninteresting that many members just dont bother participating for fear of more reprisal

Resident experts will always have the final say, they circle the wagons to offer protection for themselves.

As others do have on here, I have a first aid certificate and am reasonably conversant with what is recommended procedure for snakebite in humans at least in Australia and although I have this experience I found your posts interesting and worth consideration.

I really dont know but just maybe, time, may prove you right.

Personally I hope you stick around and contribute as the silent majority on here do actually appreciate, enjoy and absorb new information.

-- Edited by Dickodownunder on Wednesday 21st of March 2018 08:44:20 PM

Farmhat · Senior Member

Macgyver wrote:
Medical people these days are so concerned about litigation that they will only recommend things which they understand to have been exhaustively tested in the lab and proven without a shadow of a doubt...

I would agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Also, many doctors seem to want to SELL you a cure rather than prescribe prevention. The world is changing, for the better? I don't know!

Joe.

Leo · Senior Member

dogbox wrote:
i'm sure if someone of little faith was standing in a paddock miles from any help an got bitten by a venomous reptile an there happen to an electric fence near by they would be setting themselves up to be ZAPPED now that they have been made aware of the potential of a remedy at hand

Scientific method is the gold standard, not faith.

The cardinal rules are to avoid movement and excitement and to apply pressure which could be from torn clothing if nothing else is available.

What you are implying potential victims should do contradicts the best science-based, which means evidence-based, advice from reputable sources.

Leo · Senior Member

www.snakecatchers.com.au/first-aid.php

dogbox · Guru

Leo wrote:

dogbox wrote:
i'm sure if someone of little faith was standing in a paddock miles from any help an got bitten by a venomous reptile an there happen to an electric fence near by they would be setting themselves up to be ZAPPED now that they have been made aware of the potential of a remedy at hand
Scientific method is the gold standard, not faith.
The cardinal rules are to avoid movement and excitement and to apply pressure which could be from torn clothing if nothing else is available.
What you are implying potential victims should do contradicts the best science-based, which means evidence-based, advice from reputable sources.

and what you are suggesting is that a person who is with some one who has been bitten by something venomous who is standing next to an electric fence or other hv device an medical help is not available any time soon (this country is very big and has a lot of remote places) would not try the ZAP method to try and save a loved one if it works bonus if it doesn't at least you tried something while you sit there an watch them expire

i know a lady who was bitten by a tiapan on the foot, first aid two elastic bandages was all we had but we got her to the hospital with in 40 minutes 12 months later she was still in hospital with cardio complications an she lost her leg

Leo · Senior Member

dogbox wrote:
Leo wrote:

dogbox wrote:
i'm sure if someone of little faith was standing in a paddock miles from any help an got bitten by a venomous reptile an there happen to an electric fence near by they would be setting themselves up to be ZAPPED now that they have been made aware of the potential of a remedy at hand
Scientific method is the gold standard, not faith.
The cardinal rules are to avoid movement and excitement and to apply pressure which could be from torn clothing if nothing else is available.
What you are implying potential victims should do contradicts the best science-based, which means evidence-based, advice from reputable sources.

and what you are suggesting is that a person who is with some one who has been bitten by something venomous who is standing next to an electric fence or other hv device an medical help is not available any time soon (this country is very big and has a lot of remote places) would not try the ZAP method to try and save a loved one if it works bonus if it doesn't at least you tried something while you sit there an watch them expire

i know a lady who was bitten by a tiapan on the foot, first aid two elastic bandages was all we had but we got her to the hospital with in 40 minutes 12 months later she was still in hospital with cardio complications an she lost her leg

I would implement the recommended snake bite protocol.

Are you saying you would disregard the protocol where another person is concerned? Even taking actions the protocol sternly cautions against?

All here, you too, are aware of the recommended snake bite treatment because it has been posted a number of times.

aussie_paul · Guru

If I remember correctly when I was a boy the snake bite treatment recommended was to fit tourniquet above bite, make a small incisions and suck poison out. Then keep limb raised and get to hospital asap.

Aussie Paul. smile

Leo · Senior Member

aussie_paul wrote:
If I remember correctly when I was a boy the snake bite treatment recommended was to fit tourniquet above bite, make a small incisions and suck poison out. Then keep limb raised and get to hospital asap.
Aussie Paul.

Scientific method ensures improvements are based on evidence.

What examples of alternative treatments were there back then and what science as in independent evidence, supported them?

And to take a parallel, surely you are not recommending for instance, that women should not be taking advantage of medical science advances in obstetrics because years ago it was different?

-- Edited by Leo on Thursday 22nd of March 2018 01:36:36 PM

aussie_paul · Guru

Leo wrote:
Scientific method ensures improvements are based on evidence.
What examples of alternative treatments were there back then and what science as in independent evidence, supported them?
And to take a parallel, surely you are not recommending for instance, that women should not be taking advantage of medical science advances in obstetrics because years ago it was different?

Of course not Leo, BUT maybe in years to come the science will/may support this far out method. Stranger things have happened in the evolution of our species.

Aussie Paul. smile

-- Edited by aussie_paul on Thursday 22nd of March 2018 02:27:26 PM

dogbox · Guru

hello leo

not quite sure were your coming from.
if you find your self in a situation that requires action you do the best you can, with what you have, in the time you have to do it, you make decisions based what information you have available' everyone is an expert after the fact
in most cases for most people it will be a once in a life time thing what ever the event

iana · Guru

Had a look on the net and thought I found some info on Wikipedia, the writer spoke about one snake venom being different from the rest, and that it was neuro-Toxic, blocking positive and negative ions across neuronal membranes ????, but I thought the electric shock may influence this, and it was the Mojave Rattle snake. However reading of different articles made no further mention of this. Googling Snake bite electric shock, came up and several articles said that treatment of snake bites by electric shock was a hoax.

I do know of someone who is a vet, and consulting her on the matter, I got the returning statement "Cr@p", but she has treated snake bites with massive doses of vitamin D, saying if you don't have anything else i.e. anti venom, or the animal owners don't want to pay the cost, anything is worth a try.

dogbox · Guru

iana wrote:

Had a look on the net and thought I found some info on Wikipedia, the writer spoke about one snake venom being different from the rest, and that it was neuro-Toxic, blocking positive and negative ions across neuronal membranes ????, but I thought the electric shock may influence this, and it was the Mojave Rattle snake. However reading of different articles made no further mention of this. Googling Snake bite electric shock, came up and several articles said that treatment of snake bites by electric shock was a hoax.

I do know of someone who is a vet, and consulting her on the matter, I got the returning statement "Cr@p", but she has treated snake bites with massive doses of vitamin D, saying if you don't have anything else i.e. anti venom, or the animal owners don't want to pay the cost, anything is worth a try.

I wasn't sure if the vitamin D was coincidence or lucky stroke or what. it appears it may not be the recommended scientific treatment but if it works in some cases why not try
I think MacGyver was refering to his experiences in the USA and rattle snakes were mentioned

Farmhat · Senior Member

I have used those zappers for insects bites and for the most part they do help a lot, except one time I had multiple stings in one spot from inch ants. That was the only time the zapper did nothing that I could ascertain. Snake bites; well I just hope I never have one.

Joe

aussie_paul · Guru

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/05/science/the-doctor-s-world-new-shock-therapy-for-snakebites.html

I was searching for more minor bites from insects etc.

Aussie Paul. smile

rockylizard · Guru

Gday...

Thanks AP ... but that article is from 1986 - and I think was the catalyst in the support afforded by others over the years ... and if you continue to search/research the topic/subject you will find considerable subsequent articles that have, if not actually de-bunked the 'electric shock' treatment, have shown a number of scientific studies that have attempted to replicate and prove the treatment that have failed.

There have been various people who have continued to maintain their conviction that electric shock treatment is not only a viable alternative to treating snake bite, but is the best method of saving a life.

It does seem that the majority of these folk are in the veterinary field and maintain they have achieved, or witnessed, success with animals - as does Macgyver.

Given Macgyver's determined dedication to this treatment and its effectiveness, and that of some others, one day it may attain wide scientific acceptance. However, it seems that this has yet to occur.

Cheers - John

aussie_paul · Guru

rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Thanks AP ... but that article is from 1986 - and I think was the catalyst in the support afforded by others over the years ... and if you continue to search/research the topic/subject you will find considerable subsequent articles that have, if not actually de-bunked the 'electric shock' treatment, have shown a number of scientific studies that have attempted to replicate and prove the treatment that have failed.
There have been various people who have continued to maintain their conviction that electric shock treatment is not only a viable alternative to treating snake bite, but is the best method of saving a life.
It does seem that the majority of these folk are in the veterinary field and maintain they have achieved, or witnessed, success with animals - as does Macgyver.
Given Macgyver's determined dedication to this treatment and its effectiveness, and that of some others, one day it may attain wide scientific acceptance. However, it seems that this has yet to occur.
Cheers - John

Understood John. I was more interested in testing for more minor bites from insects etc. Always seem to have a 9v battery handy.

Aussie Paul. smile