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Post Info TOPIC: WDHs verses Upgrades


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WDHs verses Upgrades
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Bentax & Clarke, I'd just like to say thanks for your informative input.

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Please look up cars guide/ and eight towing myths . It states the obvious that a wdh does NOT change the TBW You cant face the truth Regards Orid

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Please look up cars guide/ and eight towing myths . It states the obvious that a wdh does NOT change the TBW You cant face the truth Regards Orid

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Also as Yobarr suggests check out John Cadagan he is a fully qualified engineer and explains everything . Now you guys need to stop putting misleading information on here and trolling . Regards Orid

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www.carsguide.com.au/tradies/advice/top-eight-towing-myths-busted-73044

autoexpert.com.au/posts/weight-distribution-and-load-levelling-hitches-know-this-before-towing%20levelling%20hitches

I tried a wdh on my van ,thought I could do away with the jocky wheel :) but it fell on my foot ? bugger


please checkk Cadogen yes he is selling his product ,but he is a fantastic car nut and has a lot of great info on cars and MYTHS.

Now on a more serious note ,

I vote Yobarr for primeminister :):):):):)

Regards Orid Loosen up

 

  • A WDH is designed to transfer the weight from the back of the tow vehicle to the front, to improve weight balance. What a WDH does not do is reduce towball download. First, level the van unhitched and measure coupling height.
    rvdaily.com.au/weight-distribution-hitches-use/
    Was this helpful?
     
     
  • PEO

 



-- Edited by orid on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 12:15:22 PM

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I wasn't going to comment, but it seems this subject always sucks all of us in. You are all correct to be frank. We can use the analogy of a roof truss. We load the roof on that, let's say 5 tonne of load. The load is being transmitted through the truss to the walls and to the ground. We then fit a column under the centre of the truss. Has the load altered? No it hasn't. We still are supporting 5 tonne, but the way the load is supported and the load path distribution has changed. A WDH can be likened to that column. When we hitch our van to our car the overall combination weight of the two vehicles hasn't changed. The sum of the two vehicles measured separately would add up to the total weight of the combination. The thing that has changed is that now the car is supporting some of the van's mass. The installation of a WDH just readjusts how that load path is distributed to the ground. Has the overall weight changed? No. Has the load being transmitted to the cars towbar changed? No. But the supports of that overall weight, the axle groups, are now being asked to more evenly take the load. Is that a good thing? Yes, absolutely provided that the vehicle and it's towbar are up to the job of having the load path altered in that way. Not all are and so some caution is advised if contemplating fitting a WDH. However if your vehicle can take a WDH, then the added advantages in steering stability and braking distance decreases alone are worth fitting one.

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Originally, from the web site you suggested. A copy paste.

3 - You can decrease the tow-ball download by fitting a weight distribution hitch
A weight distribution hitch (WDH) is a wonderful device which does exactly what its name implies. Its powerful leveraging effect provides a better distribution of weight across all axles resulting in a level ride height for tow vehicle and trailer, which is particularly important in maintaining effective steering and front wheel braking in the tow vehicle. However, just because a WDHs leveraging effect (often compared to raising the long handles of a wheelbarrow) allows this ride levelling to occur, the amount of weight on the tow-ball prior to fitting the WDH does not change.

4 - Fitting stiffer rear springs to your tow vehicle has the same effect as a WDH
The message about fitting uprated rear suspension on vehicles gets confused between GVM (gross vehicle mass) and GCM (gross combined mass) by some well-meaning owners. Numerous aftermarket suspension companies offer well-engineered upgrades which can increase a vehicles payload capacity, and therefore its GVM. Stiffer rear suspension can also reduce rear-end squat under a towing load, but the most effective way to eliminate the nose-lifting effect of a heavy trailer on a tow vehicle is with a quality WDH.

 

1. Nobody is saying the TBW just evaporates into thin air. We are saying its distributed or moved. Yobbo just tries to insinuate we are saying that.

 

2. Best method is WDH. Not heavier springs. TBW stays on the rear with heavy springs

 

In both cases he agrees with me..



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oldbloke wrote:

Bentax & Clarke, I'd just like to say thanks for your informative input.


 It is a shame that this forum topic and some others are dragged into ridiculous oblivion when it involves anything to do with weights.

I dont know much more that you can do when Clarky1 actually contacted HR and was given the info that he freely supplied for all on here.

This, with the video of a vehicle on a weighbride which clearly and concisely shows the actual axle weight increased readings when the WDH is connected I would have thought would be enough.

It was explained in previous topics as well but again the topic was derailed until it had to be locked.

Unfortunately this is how it will be.

Orid your points are noted but unproven ( weighbridge weight readings when WDH is fitted to the tow vehicle and van ).

Your observation of removing the jockey wheel is valid because you DID NOT have a WDH fitted.

So far no one on here can provide any contrary weight readings opposing Hayman Reeses weight spreadsheet or show us any difference with a weighbridge demonstration.

Regards

Rob 



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Greg 1 wrote:

I wasn't going to comment, but it seems this subject always sucks all of us in. You are all correct to be frank. We can use the analogy of a roof truss. We load the roof on that, let's say 5 tonne of load. The load is being transmitted through the truss to the walls and to the ground. We then fit a column under the centre of the truss. Has the load altered? No it hasn't. We still are supporting 5 tonne, but the way the load is supported and the load path distribution has changed. A WDH can be likened to that column. When we hitch our van to our car the overall combination weight of the two vehicles hasn't changed. The sum of the two vehicles measured separately would add up to the total weight of the combination. The thing that has changed is that now the car is supporting some of the van's mass. The installation of a WDH just readjusts how that load path is distributed to the ground. Has the overall weight changed? No. Has the load being transmitted to the cars towbar changed? No. But the supports of that overall weight, the axle groups, are now being asked to more evenly take the load. Is that a good thing? Yes, absolutely provided that the vehicle and it's towbar are up to the job of having the load path altered in that way. Not all are and so some caution is advised if contemplating fitting a WDH. However if your vehicle can take a WDH, then the added advantages in steering stability and braking distance decreases alone are worth fitting one.


 A good analogy Greg.



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oldbloke wrote:
bentaxlebabe wrote:

Hi oldbloke

Wether you have an upgrade or not, the transfer of weight toward the front axle can only be achieved by moving the load which is generally impossible with a vehicle and van, or fit a WDH as is indicated in the video in your link.
Levelling with stronger springs or airbags will not transfer any significant weight from the ball to the steer axle.


Regards

Rob



-- Edited by bentaxlebabe on Tuesday 20th of April 2021 08:05:05 AM


 Yes, that's what I believe. Thanks for the comments. So you get an upgrade, you can legally add weight to the vehicle, BUT, the front brakes and steering is still likely compromised.  Seems a backward step to me when towing. 

I've often wondered if having a WDH is the best option. In preference to an upgrade. I'm now convinced it is.


 To add to the above here is a short video from Hayman Reese which once again answers your question regarding the use of a WDH.

This has nothing to do with *he man* opinions on not needing one, or upgrades, or *bandaid fixes*, or the promotion of one brand of tow vehicle.

This is fact from HR. 

https://youtu.be/NNIWCQlRdaw

Regards

Rob



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interesting that yobarr is quoting what cadagan has to say because his opinion of the cruiser utes would put anyone off buying one ummm overpriced rough as ,over rated suited for yobbo's who think they have 3 testicles, so maybe cadagan is only quoted when his opinion matches his


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The other thing to consider, is that heavier springs will affect the vehicles handling and ride when not towing, which is not always a good thing. A tendency towards oversteer is often the result with a much firmer ride. In a dual cab ute, increasing the tendency toward oversteer is not desirable, and should be carefully considered. If this is the path you wish to embark on, then you should perhaps consider some variable rate springs with a rising rate as the load goes up. It has been mentioned that heavy duty springs do not shift load to axle groups and this is correct. It can seem that way due to the change in the vehicles handling to that oversteer condition. A WDH does not affect the vehicle once disconnected from the van so has that advantage, but sometimes a mix of the two can also be a solution.

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Here is a little bit more info that some might find interesting.

From a forum in the U.S.

                                       Back in 1966 when the front wheel drive Olds Toronado came to town, one of the local RV dealers had one hitched to a travel trailer. He had the rear wheels of the Olds removed and the WDH torqued to make the car and trailer level. I lived near by to the dealer and it was not unusual to see him driving up and down the highway.

1FD324AC-7868-4089-92C9-47BD2EEEDFD4.jpeg

Warning.

Don't attempt this without a WDH

Regards

Rob



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Bentax, thx for the HR video link. Explains it very well. Unfortunately a couple here will never understand because they are "lost in space" lol

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boab wrote:

interesting that yobarr is quoting what cadagan has to say because his opinion of the cruiser utes would put anyone off buying one ummm overpriced rough as ,over rated suited for yobbo's who think they have 3 testicles, so maybe cadagan is only quoted when his opinion matches his


 Thank you for this well considered post,but it has nothing to do with the topic under discussion.However,what you write about the 79 is of interest. to me.   1)Overpriced...who cares? With the 79 you get what you pay for. 2) Rough...no denying that,but I could not care less  3)Overrated...Perhaps you could explain why there is a 6 month waiting list to buy new,and why some 79s are getting better prices second hand than new vehicles? Back on topic,I have included a couple of screen shots of relevant information for the apparently delusional amongst us.

 

E743B2E5-977D-4F62-8923-46DB3B277B52.png

 

 

 

 

29D60307-1CDD-4675-8FFB-B7634D969BB2.png

C416B139-B14A-4FA8-9892-93C3375D88D5.png 

 






-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 07:03:50 PM

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Yeh, these utes with extra heavy springs fitted. Must be like getting a ride on a rock. Lol



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bentaxlebabe wrote:

Here is a little bit more info that some might find interesting.

From a forum in the U.S.

                                       Back in 1966 when the front wheel drive Olds Toronado came to town, one of the local RV dealers had one hitched to a travel trailer. He had the rear wheels of the Olds removed and the WDH torqued to make the car and trailer level. I lived near by to the dealer and it was not unusual to see him driving up and down the highway.

1FD324AC-7868-4089-92C9-47BD2EEEDFD4.jpeg

Warning.

Don't attempt this without a WDH

Regards

Rob


 Interesting,Rob.In my previous posts about the effects of using a WDH,I have actually discussed the fact that a WDH can be wound up enough to lift the rear wheels of the car off the ground.This is why,if people choose to use a WDH,the weight removed from the REAR AXLE of the car must be kept to a minimum,or the danger of oversteer is dramatically increased.Better to buy a suitable vehicle in the first place,rather than attempt to make a vehicle do things for which it never was designed.Cheers



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yobarr wrote:
bentaxlebabe wrote:

Here is a little bit more info that some might find interesting.

From a forum in the U.S.

                                       Back in 1966 when the front wheel drive Olds Toronado came to town, one of the local RV dealers had one hitched to a travel trailer. He had the rear wheels of the Olds removed and the WDH torqued to make the car and trailer level. I lived near by to the dealer and it was not unusual to see him driving up and down the highway.

1FD324AC-7868-4089-92C9-47BD2EEEDFD4.jpeg

Warning.

Don't attempt this without a WDH

Regards

Rob


 Interesting,Rob.In my previous posts about the effects of using a WDH,I have actually discussed the fact that a WDH can be wound up enough to lift the rear wheels of the car off the ground.This is why,if people choose to use a WDH,the weight removed from the REAR AXLE of the car must be kept to a minimum,or the danger of oversteer is dramatically increased.Better to buy a suitable vehicle in the first place,rather than attempt to make a vehicle do things for which it never was designed.Cheers


 I agree with your statement (now in blue). A good example of this would be install extra heavy springs to enable you to placea heavier than designed load on the towbar or in the tray negatively effecting braking and steering. no

 

Where as with a WDH you stay within the original manufacturers weight recommendation.

 

IMO your statement about over steer is nonsensical. The same for the comment suggesting drivers would lift rear wheels off or almost off the ground. I this was done the van would not be able to be towed. FMD



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yobarr wrote:
bentaxlebabe wrote:

Here is a little bit more info that some might find interesting.

From a forum in the U.S.

                                       Back in 1966 when the front wheel drive Olds Toronado came to town, one of the local RV dealers had one hitched to a travel trailer. He had the rear wheels of the Olds removed and the WDH torqued to make the car and trailer level. I lived near by to the dealer and it was not unusual to see him driving up and down the highway.

1FD324AC-7868-4089-92C9-47BD2EEEDFD4.jpeg

Warning.

Don't attempt this without a WDH

Regards

Rob


 Interesting,Rob.In my previous posts about the effects of using a WDH,I have actually discussed the fact that a WDH can be wound up enough to lift the rear wheels of the car off the ground.This is why,if people choose to use a WDH,the weight removed from the REAR AXLE of the car must be kept to a minimum,or the danger of oversteer is dramatically increased.Better to buy a suitable vehicle in the first place,rather than attempt to make a vehicle do things for which it never was designed.Cheers


 OK Yobarr,

Now you seem to understand that with the use of a WDH it in fact will negate the weight on the tow bar.

So in the pic above you might tell us all where the weight has gone that permits the removal of the rear wheels?

Now before you go into a blind panic about the over judicious tensioning of the WDH to achieve this, it is obvious that the WDH has been tensioned to remove more than the Tow Ball Weight.

We will wait for your reply...you arent digging another hole today are you?biggrin biggrin

Regards

Rob



-- Edited by bentaxlebabe on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 03:49:23 PM

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I don't know who writes some of the crap you dig up yobarr but that last article contains some of the most blatant drivel I have ever read. Yes a poorly adjusted WDH can have disastrous consequences and if you are going to tension the thing so far up that the wheels are practically off the ground, I would expect an exit into the scenery. Poorly selected suspension upgrades have have an equally disastrous result. But a properly adjusted WDH most certainly improves stability, steering response and moreover braking distance. You can make a race car be the most evil thing on four wheels too if you don't set it up correctly.

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bentaxlebabe wrote:
yobarr wrote:
bentaxlebabe wrote:

Here is a little bit more info that some might find interesting.

From a forum in the U.S.

                                       Back in 1966 when the front wheel drive Olds Toronado came to town, one of the local RV dealers had one hitched to a travel trailer. He had the rear wheels of the Olds removed and the WDH torqued to make the car and trailer level. I lived near by to the dealer and it was not unusual to see him driving up and down the highway.

1FD324AC-7868-4089-92C9-47BD2EEEDFD4.jpeg

Warning.

Don't attempt this without a WDH

Regards

Rob


 Interesting,Rob.In my previous posts about the effects of using a WDH,I have actually discussed the fact that a WDH can be wound up enough to lift the rear wheels of the car off the ground.This is why,if people choose to use a WDH,the weight removed from the REAR AXLE of the car must be kept to a minimum,or the danger of oversteer is dramatically increased.Better to buy a suitable vehicle in the first place,rather than attempt to make a vehicle do things for which it never was designed.Cheers


 OK Yobarr,

Now you seem to understand that with the use of a WDH it in fact will negate the weight on the tow bar.

So in the pic above you might tell us all where the weight has gone that permits the removal of the rear wheels?

Now before you go into a blind panic about the over judicious tensioning of the WDH to achieve this, it is obvious that the WDH has been tensioned to remove more than the Tow Ball Weight.

We will wait for your reply...you arent digging another hole today are you?biggrin biggrin

Regards

Rob


 Surely you jest...for months I have patiently explained that when a WDH is tensioned,weight is removed from the car's REAR AXLE and transferred to both the car's front axle,AND the caravan's axle group.The percentages of weight DISTRIBUTION are often 70-75% to the car's front axle,and 25-30% to the van's axle group,dependent on car's wheelbase,TBO,and distance from hitchpoint to the van's rear axis.With my car,because of the long wheelbase and short TBO,the percentages are 66% weight transferred to the front axle,and 34% weight transferred to the van's axle group.Again I will advise that,when a WDH is tensioned,TOWBALL WEIGHT DOES NOT CHANGE. No  matter how some may duck and weave,or misinterpret and misquote data,this fact will NEVER change.If you really believe that the towball weight on the Toronado has disappeared,you are unfortunately living in LaLa land.Surely you understand that all transferred weight has been removed from the car's REAR AXLE...NOT the towball? Although I have, several times,posted the details of my own tests,it seems that you have not bothered to either read,or analyse,same.For your benefit,here they are again.I sincerely hope that this helps you to understand,but I am increasingly suspicious of your motives,along with those of another couple of members. Good luck with your learning,although I suspect that you do indeed already know that what I say is 100% correct.Not negotiable.Cheers

P.S Thankyou for using my correct user name...some members seem to have great difficulty in even correctly copying my name onto their post.And these same people try to tell us all about weights? Yeah,right.Cheers

 

30B58E12-D9B5-4B52-ACA2-A775A97EE674.png



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Greg 1 wrote:

I don't know who writes some of the crap you dig up yobarr but that last article contains some of the most blatant drivel I have ever read. Yes a poorly adjusted WDH can have disastrous consequences and if you are going to tension the thing so far up that the wheels are practically off the ground, I would expect an exit into the scenery. Poorly selected suspension upgrades have have an equally disastrous result. But a properly adjusted WDH most certainly improves stability, steering response and moreover braking distance. You can make a race car be the most evil thing on four wheels too if you don't set it up correctly.


 It appears to be from a publication by Colin Rivers.

He wrote some reasonable info about RV electrics in the early days but arguably went way off track when it came to some other subjects.

I did note that his qualifications were questioned on some forums, could have even been on here.

Have not heard of him for ages..

BTW Greg, there have been similar comments to yours above on some forums in the past.

Regards

Rob

 



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Yobarr at the key board. The one with the camouflage space bar.  smile 

 

Mad as hell.gif

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by oldbloke on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 04:51:48 PM

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Greg 1 wrote:

I don't know who writes some of the crap you dig up yobarr but that last article contains some of the most blatant drivel I have ever read. Yes a poorly adjusted WDH can have disastrous consequences and if you are going to tension the thing so far up that the wheels are practically off the ground, I would expect an exit into the scenery. Poorly selected suspension upgrades have have an equally disastrous result. But a properly adjusted WDH most certainly improves stability, steering response and moreover braking distance. You can make a race car be the most evil thing on four wheels too if you don't set it up correctly.


 Hi Greg...please note that both my screen shots were from discussions on weights.The CCIA is the Caravan and Camping Industry Association,in Australia,while the other article is written by the US Society of Auto Engineers,with particular reference to SAE J2807,to which Gundog regularly refers when discussing weights etc.Pointless shooting the messenger,surely? If you have strong feelings about these things,perhaps you could contact these people,telling them the error of their ways? From our PMs I soon realised that you know what you're talking about,so I am somewhat puzzled by your stance here.Cheers



-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 05:40:33 PM

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yobarr wrote:
..please note that both my screen shots were from recognised authorities on weights.The CCIA is the Caravan and Camping Industry Association,in Australia,while the other article is written by the US Society of Auto Engineers,with particular reference to SAE J2807,to which Gundog regularly refers when discussing weights etc.

 Yobarr to my knowledge the CCIA is not a recognised authority on weights, it is a Marketing Oganisation representing their members. (who pay to use the RVMAP Badge) 



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Possum3 wrote:
yobarr wrote:
..please note that both my screen shots were from recognised authorities on weights.The CCIA is the Caravan and Camping Industry Association,in Australia,while the other article is written by the US Society of Auto Engineers,with particular reference to SAE J2807,to which Gundog regularly refers when discussing weights etc.

 Yobarr to my knowledge the CCIA is not a recognised authority on weights, it is a Marketing Oganisation representing their members. (who pay to use the RVMAP Badge) 


 Thanks Possum...as stated,these simply were screen shots from stuff that arrived on my computer.Cheers



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oldbloke wrote:

Yobarr at the key board. The one with the camouflage space bar.  smile 

 

Mad as hell.gif

 - Edited by oldbloke on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 04:51:48 PM


 Neil,you can relax,as I am not even remotely "mad as hell". Rather,I am sympathetic towards a couple of members who seem to have little understanding of weights,and no apparent interest in learning.It matters little whether you like the teacher provided that the lesson  is relevant and correct. But I would like to thank you for your concern. Cheers

521D04A0-D609-4B81-9B65-DE73BFC791FC.png



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oldbloke wrote:

Originally, from the web site you suggested. A copy paste.

Oldbloke thanks for the quote ,but do you realise it is number 3 of the 8 Myths that is what it is saying . 



3 - You can decrease the tow-ball download by fitting a weight distribution hitch    ( 3rd MYTH)


A weight distribution hitch (WDH) is a wonderful device which does exactly what its name implies. Its powerful leveraging effect provides a better distribution of weight across all axles resulting in a level ride height for tow vehicle and trailer, which is particularly important in maintaining effective steering and front wheel braking in the tow vehicle. However, just because a WDHs leveraging effect (often compared to raising the long handles of a wheelbarrow) allows this ride levelling to occur,{{ does not change.))) the amount of weight on the tow-ball prior to fitting the WDH

day 22nd of April 2021 05:31:07 PM



-- Edited by orid on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 05:32:21 PM

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orid wrote:

Also as Yobarr suggests check out John Cadagan he is a fully qualified engineer and explains everything . Now you guys need to stop putting misleading information on here and trolling . Regards Orid


 This is where even the most uninformd person can discover the truth.Cheers

 

E3DC37EF-6277-4BF2-8CBC-E80D2A35187E.jpeg



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Yobarr,

Actually I dont Jest.

Does the weight come off the TBW and Rear Axle of the tow vehicle to the value of the TBW when a WDH is adjusted correctly as per the video and the HR fact sheet and this same value of weight is transferred both to the front axle of the tow vehicle and the van axle group......or not?

Regards

Rob

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