Working as a retiree, for farmers to pick the nations crops

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

RE: Working as a retiree, for farmers to pick the nations crops

DMaxer · Guru

If the farmer is not getting a sufficient price whereby he can pay a proper wage then he is either growing too much of the product or it is not a marketable commodity. If you have a factory that makes products that don't sell, it doesn't mean you can underpay or short pay your workers.

Obviously, if these farmers are accepting low gate prices then they are more concerned that the bloke next door will undercut them if they don't demand a reasonable price.

If they don't want to be competitive and demand a proper price then that is their business. Just don't start whingeing about people not wanting to work for a pittance because they are too stupid to understand the market.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

Check what milk prices have come down to the last few years !!

Mike Harding · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
If the farmer is not getting a sufficient price whereby he can pay a proper wage then he is either growing too much of the product or it is not a marketable commodity. If you have a factory that makes products that don't sell, it doesn't mean you can underpay or short pay your workers.
Obviously, if these farmers are accepting low gate prices then they are more concerned that the bloke next door will undercut them if they don't demand a reasonable price.
If they don't want to be competitive and demand a proper price then that is their business. Just don't start whingeing about people not wanting to work for a pittance because they are too stupid to understand the market.

Nicely put, I thought.

Farms are not charities are should not expect to be treated as such on their input side - they do not operate so on their output side.

gdayjr · Senior Member

Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Check what the farmers get at the gate compared to retail outlets ? Theres half the issue !!!

What are they geting?

What point are you making here?, i don't know these figures?

TheHeaths · Guru

Not condoning under/low/short payment for one minute.

That said though, unlike most industry and production, the primary product has a much more restricted saleable life, and in many cases, a finite and often short production season. These 2 factors alone can have a massive influence on prices, as it is a feast or famine supply model.

It is certainly a conundrum, and I am pleased I dont have to finance my life on that basis.

bgt · Guru

Farmers are price takers not price makers. The market determines what farmers will get paid. To say that the farmer should increase or demand higher prices, and therefore pay higher wages, is nonsense. DMaxer said "If the farmer is not getting a sufficient price whereby he can pay a proper wage then he is either growing too much of the product or it is not a marketable commodity." Sorry but that's a rubbish statement. Shows a total lack of understanding of how the primary industry works. Tell the beef farmers that at the market that they can tell the buyers what they will accept. The buyers bid for the stock and the farmer simply has to take what he is offered. Tell the dairy farmer to pour the milk down the drain if he doesn't get what he wants. Tell the cows not to come up for milking in the morning. What a load of BS.

Diary farmers have no say in the matter. The big processors and the supermarkets set the price. Not the farmer. Recent events have shown how the big guys manipulate the farmer.

Remember the supermarket that said they were collecting money on behalf of the farmers? And that money simply disappeared in the supermarkets books.

Grain crops prices are determined by world prices. Not what the farmer wants. Sheez, don't comment if you can't simply grasp the basic facts.

I'm sorry for the rant. But how about doing some research before making comments.

KJB · Guru

bgt wrote:
Farmers are price takers not price makers. The market determines what farmers will get paid. To say that the farmer should increase or demand higher prices, and therefore pay higher wages, is nonsense. DMaxer said "If the farmer is not getting a sufficient price whereby he can pay a proper wage then he is either growing too much of the product or it is not a marketable commodity." Sorry but that's a rubbish statement. Shows a total lack of understanding of how the primary industry works. Tell the beef farmers that at the market that they can tell the buyers what they will accept. The buyers bid for the stock and the farmer simply has to take what he is offered. Tell the dairy farmer to pour the milk down the drain if he doesn't get what he wants. Tell the cows not to come up for milking in the morning. What a load of BS.

Diary farmers have no say in the matter. The big processors and the supermarkets set the price. Not the farmer. Recent events have shown how the big guys manipulate the farmer.

Remember the supermarket that said they were collecting money on behalf of the farmers? And that money simply disappeared in the supermarkets books.

Grain crops prices are determined by world prices. Not what the farmer wants. Sheez, don't comment if you can't simply grasp the basic facts.

I'm sorry for the rant. But how about doing some research before making comments.

Well said - you "nailed it". I left the farming industry for that very reason (was a big decision..) ....work all year and then wait to see what "they" would give you at the end of the year ...went into 3 seperate industries (...and one was a caravan park !) in which we had some control over price- and never looked back , breath of fresh air......

DMaxer · Guru

I don't accept that bgt. Like anything else in the commercial world it is a business. This romantic notion that the farmers are all slaving away and at the mercy of the corporate market is a nonsense. Have a look at the futures markets, they know when a crop will be in demand and when there is a glut. Have a look at the old Wool Board and Wheat Board, they would stockpile when there was a glut and virtually create the market price. Dairy farming is entirely different. Most of these are just family concerns and not labour intensive like citrus or berry crops.

It is not the responsibility of the worker to compensate the grower for poor judgement or lack of business acumen. In so much as telling people to do research, I am expressing an opinion, not writing a thesis.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Thursday 17th of June 2021 09:14:28 AM

dorian · Guru

I would hate to see Australian agriculture go the way of Australian manufacturing. I think it is in the national interest to have a secure food supply, even if it means that farmers are given special consideration. Currently all our manufacturing eggs are in China's basket, and look where that has got us.

bgt · Guru

DMaxer you simply don't get it. So you are telling me that a grain farmer should know what the price is 12 months ahead of his harvest! 12 months before he has to commit to sowing his crop. And well before he knows what the weather will do to his crop. No accounting for seasons in Russia, Canada or the USA where grain prices, and futures, are set. No accounting for crop failures or demand in other parts of the world. To my knowledge you don't have to own a crystal ball to be a farmer.

Sugar growers are at the mercy of countries like India who heavily subsidize their farmers.

Dairy farmers have calves. Well the cows do. So you are saying that they should keep the bull in the paddock and not have new herd to renew their stock. So all the herd is one year older. No vealers off to market. No new milkers next year. So the cows don't produce milk because they have no calves to feed. It's a one, two or three year cycle to build up and manage herds. So you are saying they can just tell the cows to sleep in in the morning because the milk price is too low. The bull can just go randy.

DMaxer it's quite apparent that you know bugger all about how the primary industry works. The old wool board and wheat board worked in they days before the global market and online bidding.

Recoup · Guru

On the lokal news ,"Prime News " farmers pay $9 a day picking fruit ! With stupid news like that , no one will work for that. No farmer in Australia would lower them self like that and employ slaves. Fake news big time ,as far as I know , those slaves " from oversees countries " work for a boss who does all the paper work for them , and than gives them whatever he likes. One benefit for the farmer is , he only deals with one person and not with somebody who can't speak english.

DMaxer · Guru

I think before you start lecturing people bgt you should do a little reading. Of course farmers know what their grain crops will bring in advance they are sold on futures contracts Farmers don't wake up one day and plant a grain crop and then wonder what will happen in 12 months, they know the minimum price they will receive. These prices are already set by various Boards of Trade and futures markets. As for your dairy farmer example, they are on contracts set for a period of five years or more guaranteeing the minimum price they will receive. The only crops that are not set are speculative crops like avocadoes, berries et al where they take the punt that there will be a shortage and the price will be high. When this does not occur things go pear shaped, pardon the pun.

I know about these things because I have negotiated some of these contracts on behalf of people in the agriculture industry. I also know about the caveats that exist in these contracts. If you think major agricultural interests don't know what the financial result is going to be before the crop is planted then I suggest you take your own advice and do a little bit of research. This is not a few pensioners growing tomatoes in the back yard and trying to flog them off on Saturday mornings down outside the pub. I suggest you limit your abuse and bullying to people of a similar intellect to yourself.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Thursday 17th of June 2021 12:30:00 PM

TheHeaths · Guru

Cant remember last time I saw the grey nomads and back packers out picking the wheat!

bgt · Guru

DMaxer I said it before and I'll say it again. You have a very blinkered view of how the primary industry works in Australia. I came from the land. My wife came from the land. Our families are still working to make money from the land. I know first hand how the average Australian farmer works from hand to mouth. Sure big organization may 'play' the futures market. But they don't play the weather game and they certainly don't spin the bottle to see how much yield they will get each year. If any at all. The brother in law is in the beef game. He never knows how much he will get when he sends cattle to market. He never knows how much grass feed he will grow because of the weather. Unless there's a weather futures market that you know of. The inlaws have spent a few decades in the dairy game. Tell me how they get bent over by the big guys. Tell me how they are supplying a market that you say they shouldn't be in. Tell me how planning a year or two ahead to ensure the herd is the best they can be. Cows have to be milked regardless of what the market price is.

DMaxer I'll quote you again - "If the farmer is not getting a sufficient price whereby he can pay a proper wage then he is either growing too much of the product or it is not a marketable commodity." - That shows your complete ignorance of how the average farm in Australia works. So tell the inlaws that they are growing too much milk and that it's not a marketable product. Tell the brother inlaw that he has too many head of cattle and that beef isn't a marketable product. Tell him that at the sales yard he has to tell the buyers what to pay.

I know I'm pissing against the wind trying to convince you. But you need to get a reality check. The primary industry isn't made up of multinational companies. It's made up of thousands of family farmers who take what they can to stay one step ahead of the banks.

DMaxer · Guru

The issue is about people picking crops not being paid a fair wage bgt, not about poor business choices by some members of the agricultural community. If one goes into a business or inherits a business from the parents then the obligation is on them to keep it profitable or give it away. It is not an excuse to underway workers or to blame every person not willing to accept a pittance and accuse them of being lazy.

I had a practice and if it didn't make a quid then that was the end of it. I paid staff above award to make sure I kept them, I did not underpay staff so I could stay in profit.

Students, grey nomads and backpackers do not go out and handpick wheat, drive cattle or milk cows. No one in these industries is complaining about the remuneration, just the poor unfortunates who are getting dudded in the picking industry.

You can have your romantic views about the land and I will have mine.

bgt · Guru

DMaxer my views are the reality of the industry.

yobarr · Guru

bgt wrote:
DMaxer my views are the reality of the industry.

Well said Bruce. Some people seem to live in fantasy land,unfortunately.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 18th of June 2021 10:47:50 AM

Possum3 · Guru

Some interesting statistics at www.averagesalarysurvey.com/en-au/farmer - Concerning is the apparent drop of earnings as time in industry increases.

IMHO; Most "Farmers" continue to stay on the land either because of the love they have for the lifestyle or the commitment of all their assets that are unavailable to "cash-out" and walk away.

DMaxer · Guru

That may well be so Possum. Does that then justify exploiting people to pick their crops. No one is complaining about the beef, grain or dairy industry, it is the horticultural mob that are being singled out.

bgt · Guru

DMaxer does McDonalds or Seven Eleven 'exploit' workers? Every industry you want to look at will have stories of 'exploitation'. That doesn't excuse ill informed posts about what you deem as exploitation.

Bundling all primary produces into a one size fits all comment just doesn't cut it.

peter67 · Guru

Dead right Bruce look at what the supermarket chains have been doing to dairy farmers for years, it's a case of bend over and grab your ankles, if you'd like vaseline that will be extra...

DMaxer · Guru

I recall a couple of years ago I was in the Renmark area. Parked next to me were a couple in their late sixties and they told me they had just finished working for a week in an orange orchard picking fruit. They told me they started work when the temperature reached 8 degrees and then worked all day, no breaks, and would pick between 3-4 bins per day at $25 per bin. At the end of the week they had picked 18 bins for the grand return of $450.00 between them. They had worked for more than 40 hours each for $225 each. They told me the place was full of backpackers and people who could not speak English. Think about that when you are sobbing away about the poor farmer doing it tough.

The whole topic was about people not wanting to pick fruit because of the lousy money. You decided to turn it into a rant about your great knowledge of the agricultural industry and how tough your family does it for the sake of the country.

Like everyone else who is self employed or in a family business. If you can't make a quid out of it, get out and do something else. Why should the taxpayers have to prop you up when others in business receive little if no assistance.

As for the businesses you name who allegedly underpaid staff, well the reason we heard about them was that they were prosecuted. Just because someone else may rip off workers does not give the agriculturist a licence to do so, or do you disagree with that as well.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Friday 18th of June 2021 01:40:59 PM

bgt · Guru

DMaxer I'll quote your comment just one more time. "If the farmer is not getting a sufficient price whereby he can pay a proper wage then he is either growing too much of the product or it is not a marketable commodity." You made a 'silly' statement that provoked a response.

Now we are talking about piece rates. Now piece rates is another story all together. We employed up to 60 workers. We paid them over award rates. But we employed workers from overseas to do piece work. Why? Because Australian workers weren't willing to put in the hard yards. The 'imported' workers made very good money on piece rates. Same with any piece rate work. Some folks are suited to and some aren't. No different to any work. Some folks are more suited to the work than others. But not all work is piece rates. Working on a dairy farm isn't paid by how many cows you can milk in an hour.

This is getting to the silly point of the discussion. Ill informed 'opinions' don't help. So fire away I've said what I believe to be the case. Agree or disagree I'm over it.

DMaxer · Guru

You don't need to underline or quote me bsg, give your stupid lectures to persons of similar intellect to yourself who have trouble with comprehension.

Hourly rate is not offered when fruit picking although it should be. All this rubbish about Australians not working hard is just an excuse wheeled out by the agriculture industry so that they can get cheap overseas labour.

If a proper rate was paid commensurate with the labour required then there would be no crisis in the industry.

I think you have been watching too many westerns on the television during the lockdowns and have become delusional with your status.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Friday 18th of June 2021 04:15:09 PM

TheHeaths · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
I think you have been watching too many westerns on the television during the lockdowns and have become delusional with your status.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Friday 18th of June 2021 04:15:09 PM

There are more than a few on here with that problem.

yobarr · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
You don't need to underline or quote me bsg, give your stupid lectures to persons of similar intellect to yourself who have trouble with comprehension.
Hourly rate is not offered when fruit picking although it should be. All this rubbish about Australians not working hard is just an excuse wheeled out by the agriculture industry so that they can get cheap overseas labour.
If a proper rate was paid commensurate with the labour required then there would be no crisis in the industry.
I think you have been watching too many westerns on the television during the lockdowns and have become delusional with your status.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Friday 18th of June 2021 04:15:09 PM

Above,I have highlighted your words that suggest to me that you're living in LaLa land. The layabouts that abound would likely take up any offer of highly paid employment,but getting said layabouts to actually work would be the problem.Having been spoon-fed from birth,they are not likely to change their ways.At one stage I picked grapes around Dareton,then pears around Kyabram,then I hand-loaded thousands of bales of hay,at around 35kg each,onto trucks,and always I made good money.Why? Because I damn well worked . Many of the younger generation wouldn't even know how to spell "work". And could you explain why you think it is unfair of farmers to expect to pay only for work done? Or do you expect those farmers to just fork out endless streams of money for people to stand around among the fruit trees,doing nothing? Spare me!

-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 18th of June 2021 07:47:54 PM

gdayjr · Senior Member

Who said this.

"Why are people so unkind?"

Why so much negativity in some of the posts on this website.

People trying to belittle others, showing of their superior knowledge? and with it their ignorance.

My old Sensai once said to a fellow student. It is better to say nothing and let peolple think you are ignorant, than opening your mouth and proving it.

If you have nothing good to say....then say nothing.

DMaxer · Guru

Yes Yobarr, there are people that don't like to work but they are in the minority. We come from this generation where we all think that we walked ten miles to school barefoot in forty degree temperatures everyday and were all tireless workers. I remember when I was a lot younger there was always work to be had in student holidays. There was taxi work, bar work, labouring work and it all had the one thing in common. It paid well and there was plenty of it. I gave fruit and veggie a go for one summer and learned just what a rip off it was for the labour required. Fifty years later and nothing has changed except that the locals won't tolerate the wages and so overseas workers and backpackers are shipped in

If the growers paid a minimum hourly rate together with a bonus rate for amount picked they would have their work force. This scenario of workers sitting around doing nothing would only exist if there was a management problem either in recruitment or supervision. That couple I referred to were hard workers and came from a rural background and were totally exploited, just like the other poor buggers that worked there. The trap is for backpackers, if they work 90 days in these slave conditions they can extend their visa for another 12 months.

What I have learned about the youth of today is that they are much smarter, much more knowledgeable about world affairs and will not be pushed around by people telling them how tough they had it in their day. Except for the war years and a depression we wanted for nothing. Everyone could make a bob in school and university holidays, you could take a second job if saving for something, life was good. They have much more competition in work and education than I ever had.

I will leave you to it, that's my lot.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Saturday 19th of June 2021 08:58:30 AM