Lockdowns and the social cost

Dicko1 · Senior Member

RE: Lockdowns and the social cost

Wanda · Guru

Dicko1 wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Always thought the Libs were a bit precious the poor loves, harden up princesses.
The buck falls on Scomo, not Albo!
No point saying " they would not have been any better" because we will never ever know, simple!
This should close it me thinks
Agree....saying "they would have done no better" is just plain bull****e.Complete speculation. Scummo and gang handled the virus well when the rest of the world was floundering. However their complete mishandling of the vaccine rollout has been abysmal, made us look like fools to the rest of the world and will cost lives .

YEP, your last line says it all

Are We Lost · Guru

I am trying to avoid saying too much political on this but I can't let Trevor's chart and comments stand. Your chart shows declining debt under Howard, then quadrupling of the debt in the Rudd labour years, followed by a bit more than doubling in the ensuing Liberal years. Yet your comments appear to say (3 times) about a 7 fold increase under the present government. Doesn't make sense.

However your chart refers to Gross debt (which would include you if you borrowed and that money came from overseas), but your comments refer to government spending. So your comments and the chart are different subjects.

If you want the true picture, compare government debt to GDP as that is the important one. It paints a very different story of Howard years vs Rudd years. Note that the end of the Howard years was the best debt/GDP ratio on record, quickly reversed under Rudd. Australia still has one of the best results in the world.

Government debt to GDP.

I will refrain from further comment on this subject.

As for the social cost, and the subject of this thread, I think the lockdowns are a necessary evil, although I would prefer to see tighter restrictions on a smaller area. The fact that the Central Coast was locked down for 3 weeks before a single case was active in the community was ridiculous. 350,000 people impacted.

Most of the readers here are probably retired, so lockdowns are less impact than someone who is self employed. I can really understand the frustration of a young healthy person who still has debts and other bills to pay, but can't work. If more people took responsibility, and more were vaccinated, we could get on with life sooner.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 27th of July 2021 02:40:42 PM

Trevor 57 · Senior Member

Are We Lost wrote:

Government debt to GDP.

ahh, that is so much better

I will refrain from any further comment on politics as well, until someone else doesn't biggrin biggrin biggrin l

oldbloke · Guru

Trevor 57 wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:

Government debt to GDP.

ahh, that is so much better

I will refrain from any further comment on politics as well, until someone else doesn't l

Lol

yobarr · Guru

Wanda wrote:
Dicko1 wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Always thought the Libs were a bit precious the poor loves, harden up princesses.
The buck falls on Scomo, not Albo!
No point saying " they would not have been any better" because we will never ever know, simple!
This should close it me thinks
Agree....saying "they would have done no better" is just plain bull****e.Complete speculation. Scummo and gang handled the virus well when the rest of the world was floundering. However their complete mishandling of the vaccine rollout has been abysmal, made us look like fools to the rest of the world and will cost lives .
YEP, your last line says it all

What part of "There was no bluddy vaccine available" do you not understand?".

Wanda · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Dicko1 wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Always thought the Libs were a bit precious the poor loves, harden up princesses.
The buck falls on Scomo, not Albo!
No point saying " they would not have been any better" because we will never ever know, simple!
This should close it me thinks
Agree....saying "they would have done no better" is just plain bull****e.Complete speculation. Scummo and gang handled the virus well when the rest of the world was floundering. However their complete mishandling of the vaccine rollout has been abysmal, made us look like fools to the rest of the world and will cost lives .
YEP, your last line says it all
What part of "There was no bluddy vaccine available" do you not understand?".

Harden up princess!

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Blues Man wrote:
Clarky 1 wrote:
My guess is it wont be long and this topic will get a belting with the big padlock.

Why would it be padlocked Clarky 1, everybody knows that the selfish people who don't want to be vaccinated are complete TOOLS.

I can only agree with your observation above Blues Man,

but my comment re the padlock was with reference to the breach of forum rules when politics take over a topic.

It has gotten even worse since I made that comment.
Mike Hardings OP is not a bad topic for debate but when we bring in views on the GFC. and the GDP with direct comment for one side or the other then it wont be long.

Shame really

-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Tuesday 27th of July 2021 03:59:02 PM

yobarr · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
Trevor 57 wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
Government debt to GDP.
ahh, that is so much better
I will refrain from any further comment on politics as well, until someone else doesn't l
Lol

Could any of you political geniuses explain how a Government can possibly fork-out mutiple thousands of dollars to anybody who felt that they "deserved" it,and to the many thousands of people who simply milked the system,without increasing debt? No matter how much many may duck and weave,there is simply no way known that any enterprise can make endless payments to those who are producing nothing.Cheers

yobarr · Guru

Wanda wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Dicko1 wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Always thought the Libs were a bit precious the poor loves, harden up princesses.
The buck falls on Scomo, not Albo!
No point saying " they would not have been any better" because we will never ever know, simple!
This should close it me thinks
Agree....saying "they would have done no better" is just plain bull****e.Complete speculation. Scummo and gang handled the virus well when the rest of the world was floundering. However their complete mishandling of the vaccine rollout has been abysmal, made us look like fools to the rest of the world and will cost lives .
YEP, your last line says it all
What part of "There was no bluddy vaccine available" do you not understand?".
Harden up princess!

???? Was my simple question too hard for you to answer? Cheers

Are We Lost · Guru

Don't omit the part you referred to about about Howard. Mabe you would like to go back and read what you wrote.

Trevor 57 · Senior Member

Are We Lost wrote:
Don't omit the part you referred to about about Howard. Mabe you would like to go back and read what you wrote.

I hope for balance you post up the Abbott / Turnbull / Morrison data, just to be fair

Mike Harding · Guru

Oi! Settle down - it's my thread, start your own if you want to drag it off topic.

I don't give a toss who's in power - there's stuff all difference between Labor and Liberal in Oz.

I simply want "The Elite" who are generally on salaries of $200k+ to feel some of the pain of the people they are governing - is that so bad?

Izabarack · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
Izabarack wrote:
Not a practical suggestion. How do you measure Culpability? How do you seperate authority from responsibility? How douse measure what is reasonable?
All those assessments are made when jobs are assigned a pay grade.

In what way is pay grade a measure of culpability? Where is the cutoff point, by pay grade, for being responsible for the imposition of a lockdown? On what grounds can you argue that arbitrarily imposing a financial penalty to all those on some pay level is a reasonable thing to do? Seems you have not thought this suggestion through.

Dicko1 · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Dicko1 wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Always thought the Libs were a bit precious the poor loves, harden up princesses.
The buck falls on Scomo, not Albo!
No point saying " they would not have been any better" because we will never ever know, simple!
This should close it me thinks
Agree....saying "they would have done no better" is just plain bull****e.Complete speculation. Scummo and gang handled the virus well when the rest of the world was floundering. However their complete mishandling of the vaccine rollout has been abysmal, made us look like fools to the rest of the world and will cost lives .
YEP, your last line says it all
What part of "There was no bluddy vaccine available" do you not understand?".

A strict policy of lockdowns, border closures and quarantine controls has seen Australia keep infection levels low. The country has recorded 910 deaths and 30,274 cases since the pandemic began - far fewer than most other nations.

On the vaccination front, however, it remains a laggard. According to the latest Our World data, Australia has delivered 23 doses per 100 people.

That rate compares to 106.1 doses per 100 people in the UK, 92.9 in the US, and 73.3 in Germany. Most vaccines require two doses.

Australia is one of the worst performers in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), though Japan and New Zealand hold lower vaccination rates per 100 people.

We rate at 138 on the OECD list!!! How did 137 countries get the vaccine ahead of us if there was no vaccine available???

What part of piss poor performance from the govt dont you understand!!

Rob Driver · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Dicko1 wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Always thought the Libs were a bit precious the poor loves, harden up princesses.
The buck falls on Scomo, not Albo!
No point saying " they would not have been any better" because we will never ever know, simple!
This should close it me thinks
Agree....saying "they would have done no better" is just plain bull****e.Complete speculation. Scummo and gang handled the virus well when the rest of the world was floundering. However their complete mishandling of the vaccine rollout has been abysmal, made us look like fools to the rest of the world and will cost lives .
YEP, your last line says it all
What part of "There was no bluddy vaccine available" do you not understand?".

Hi yobarr,

This is getting more frightening every day that we are now agreeing with each other more and more as time goes on. biggrin

It has been reported that our mob ordered a big supply of vaccines from the mob in Europe.

The order was not honoured by the Frenchies**

Maybe they were concerned how they let us all down in the last big war.

My jousting horse and my armour and jousting pole are now stored safely in the big shed out the back.

Mike H, I hope the political off topic rubbish can be lost in good debate.

-- Edited by Rob Driver on Tuesday 27th of July 2021 07:02:55 PM

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Rob Driver wrote:
TheHeaths wrote:
If anyone thinks that the Opposition would have done anything different when this pandemic started and Australians looked to come home, you are kidding yourselves.

They are the party who have stood up and asked, even demanded, that the Government do more to bring Australians home. And in my opinion it is only right and just that both parties have tried to repatriate people as best they can, because they are elected in this country for ALL Australians, here and overseas.

The pandemic is here because we live in the 21st century, and people travel, and it cannot and should not be laid at the feet of any party or Government.

As for myself, I consider it unthinkable that Australians are prevented from coming home to their country. Human error has seen some infectious breakouts, but we must never stop those who wish to return coming home. We just have to do things better.
It is sad to say that we have had the best of the bad lot of any who could have been in control during this pandemic.
Bringing Australians home has worn fairly thin with most in Aus.
Ask anyone who is forced to close their business and lose their livelihood while they watch the endless flight of * Australians coming home* fifteen months after the govt advised all Aussies overseas to come home.
They sit and watch news reports with regular monotony of stories of someone who comes in from overseas, spends time in less than adequate quarantine and then infects hundreds if not thousands of people.
This topic is about lockdowns and the social cost.
I suggest that the social cost to the genuine caring Australian of having to have these lockdowns far out weighs the selfish requirements of a few who consider that they are so self entitled as to demand international travel whenever they want.
An international shut down at our borders while we put into place, quarantine stations that actually worked and then strictly supervised who was actually coming and going, would have gone long way to reducing the social cost.
We have had many cases of people within Australia not being permitted to travel to visit sick and dying family while at the same time we see hordes of people leaving Aus to go to overseas for the very same reason and then being permitted back in WITH THE VIRUS.
These type of actions are what is causing the social cost of the mental health of the majority of Australians.
Might I suggest that many of the supporters of this overseas travel have not been denied a visit to a sick or dying family member in Australia while watching this fiasco supported by the Federal govt and their state counterparts.
I am, and have always been a Lib/National supporter but what they are doing to the bulk of our population by their inactions with international travel and with the gross mismanagement of quarantine, vaccine roll out and their effort to politically divide the actions of the states of the commonwealth, is not acceptable.

Sometimes just being tough and hardening up is the better avenue for the country and its peoples well being.
As I said in another topic * I am glad we are not in a war of actual combat*

-- Edited by Rob Driver on Tuesday 27th of July 2021 10:44:41 AM

Got to agree with both you dudes, at least in some parts.

The other mob would have made a shambles of it from the get-go

The ones we have, have tried to do their best while bowing to minority groups and pressure from the airline executives. Enter Alan Joyce.

If the gate was shut when this first started until we had the quarantine centres and procedures sorted properly then we may not be in this current bother in NSW.

No, that wasn't going to happen, old Glad Bag could not upset her federal counterparts by doing what the majority of other states did at the time.

I think the quote, being bit hard on the BUM might be in order.

The social cost is not able to be measured considering we could have isolated this within our country and so many businesses would not have needed to be in these repetitive lock downs for the sake of a few who considered travel overseas was necessary.

My opinion is a poor decision was made in permitting international travel.

-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Tuesday 27th of July 2021 08:00:19 PM

-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Tuesday 27th of July 2021 08:01:11 PM

Gundog · Guru

What makes to vaccine rollout so bad, we had booked in for our 1st jab of AZ which we were supposed to get last Wed, we had to cancel because of we had to fly to Brisbane that morning, we get back from Brisbane Thursday night, Monday morning I ring the clinic to rebook for the AZ jab I'm in on Tues day the 3rd. However my partner has been told by her specialist she is not to have AZ but is to have Phiser, because she is not eligible for it she needs a letter from her specialist which is on the way.

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

So many coming out of the woodwork saying they need the Phizer over AZ is amazing! Some scare mongering going on !

Wanda · Guru

Aus-Kiwi wrote:
So many coming out of the woodwork saying they need the Phizer over AZ is amazing! Some scare mongering going on !

Yes I think you are 100% correct, after all how many doctors would ignore their patients request just to keep them happy! We also have friends, well over 60,who have decided they only want the Phizer?? Turning people into selfish prats

Ian

Gundog · Guru

My partner was happy to have the AZ jab, but it was the specialists who said no due to her CTEPH

Aus-Kiwi · Guru

We sold everything to be out of debt. For WHAT ??

yobarr · Guru

Rob Driver wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Dicko1 wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Always thought the Libs were a bit precious the poor loves, harden up princesses.
The buck falls on Scomo, not Albo!
No point saying " they would not have been any better" because we will never ever know, simple!
This should close it me thinks
Agree....saying "they would have done no better" is just plain bull****e.Complete speculation. Scummo and gang handled the virus well when the rest of the world was floundering. However their complete mishandling of the vaccine rollout has been abysmal, made us look like fools to the rest of the world and will cost lives .
YEP, your last line says it all
What part of "There was no bluddy vaccine available" do you not understand?".
Hi yobarr,
This is getting more frightening every day that we are now agreeing with each other more and more as time goes on.
It has been reported that our mob ordered a big supply of vaccines from the mob in Europe.The order was not honoured by the Frenchies.
Maybe they were concerned how they let us all down in the last big war.
My jousting horse and my armour and jousting pole are now stored safely in the big shed out the back.
Mike H, I hope the political off topic rubbish can be lost in good debate.

Hi Rob.Good to see that great minds think alike,on occasions,at least. In your post above I have highlighted the facts,which are conveniently ignored or disputed by those who seem not to understand logic,or even commin sense.Surely it was impossible to distribute a product that had been ordered months earlier,but had not arrived.What part of "there was no bluddy vaccine available" do these idjits not understand? Cheers

dogbox · Guru

we can blame anyone we like for the present situation but when it is all over an we get back to NORMAL there will be a lot of people who will not recover both financially an/or mentally!

Dicko1 · Senior Member

yobarr wrote:
Rob Driver wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Dicko1 wrote:
Wanda wrote:
Always thought the Libs were a bit precious the poor loves, harden up princesses.
The buck falls on Scomo, not Albo!
No point saying " they would not have been any better" because we will never ever know, simple!
This should close it me thinks
Agree....saying "they would have done no better" is just plain bull****e.Complete speculation. Scummo and gang handled the virus well when the rest of the world was floundering. However their complete mishandling of the vaccine rollout has been abysmal, made us look like fools to the rest of the world and will cost lives .
YEP, your last line says it all
What part of "There was no bluddy vaccine available" do you not understand?".
Hi yobarr,
This is getting more frightening every day that we are now agreeing with each other more and more as time goes on.
It has been reported that our mob ordered a big supply of vaccines from the mob in Europe.The order was not honoured by the Frenchies.
Maybe they were concerned how they let us all down in the last big war.
My jousting horse and my armour and jousting pole are now stored safely in the big shed out the back.
Mike H, I hope the political off topic rubbish can be lost in good debate.
Hi Rob.Good to see that great minds think alike,on occasions,at least. In your post above I have highlighted the facts,which are conveniently ignored or disputed by those who seem not to understand logic,or even commin sense.Surely it was impossible to distribute a product that had been ordered months earlier,but had not arrived.What part of "there was no bluddy vaccine available" do these idjits not understand? Cheers

So ..once again....

A strict policy of lockdowns, border closures and quarantine controls has seen Australia keep infection levels low. The country has recorded 910 deaths and 30,274 cases since the pandemic began - far fewer than most other nations.

On the vaccination front, however, it remains a laggard. According to the latest Our World data, Australia has delivered 23 doses per 100 people.

That rate compares to 106.1 doses per 100 people in the UK, 92.9 in the US, and 73.3 in Germany. Most vaccines require two doses.

Australia is one of the worst performers in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), though Japan and New Zealand hold lower vaccination rates per 100 people.

We rate at 138 on the OECD list!!! How did 137 countries get the vaccine ahead of us if there was no vaccine available???

What part of piss poor performance from the govt dont you understand!!

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Australia was and is relatively well protected from mass infections (Like NZ), provided tracking and lock downs continue promptly, so I suspect that the slow introduction of the vaccines was probably a cautious approach by the Government to reduce the risk of unknown responses from the vaccines. Can not blame them for that.
The rate of uptake now is totally in the hands of the population. It is available to those who want it.

Looking at social costs. Do not discount the social costs of high death rates and full hospitals where other procedures are not possible because of covid load.

Those who are critical of the Governments actions are free to stand for election. Let's see how you get on then :)
Cheers,
Peter

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Wednesday 28th of July 2021 12:38:38 PM

Are We Lost · Guru

Dicko1 wrote:
......

We rate at 138 on the OECD list!!! How did 137 countries get the vaccine ahead of us if there was no vaccine available???
What part of piss poor performance from the govt dont you understand!!

Because we are in the lucky countyr. Because our number of cases and deaths was so low, the suppliers chose to cancel most of our order and give it to countiries more in need. Not our choice, but maybe it was the humanitarian thing to do.

Because our numbers were so low, people decided to hold off on vaccinations, or choose which one they wanted. I can't imagine that happening in the countries with overloaded hospitals.

My personal belief is that those making the decisions are working on a balance .... don't let it get out of control, but allow enough cases to increase the population's desire to get vaccinated. In the long run, that may be the best way to save lives and moderate the cost to society and the economy.

Rob Driver · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
Dicko1 wrote:
......

We rate at 138 on the OECD list!!! How did 137 countries get the vaccine ahead of us if there was no vaccine available???
What part of piss poor performance from the govt dont you understand!!
Because we are in the lucky countyr. Because our number of cases and deaths was so low, the suppliers chose to cancel most of our order and give it to countiries more in need. Not our choice, but maybe it was the humanitarian thing to do.
Because our numbers were so low, people decided to hold off on vaccinations, or choose which one they wanted. I can't imagine that happening in the countries with overloaded hospitals.
My personal belief is that those making the decisions are working on a balance .... don't let it get out of control, but allow enough cases to increase the population's desire to get vaccinated. In the long run, that may be the best way to save lives and moderate the cost to society and the economy.

Dicko 1

Have a read of basically how it happened not only in Aus but in many other countries.

By the 4 th of March 2021 the EU decided not to honour Australias original order for the vaccine.

England helped Australia out but is denying they assisted us for fear of upsetting the EU.

The vaccine and its supply on a world wide basis is very controversial.

No country can roll out the vaccine if they are denied supply, particularly AFTER THE ORDER WAS PLACED.

Here is a link which begins to explain how it went.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-30/european-union-eu-coronavirus-vaccine-shipments-australia/13105718

The social cost of this pandemic in Aus is not as much as the vaccine roll out but more allowing people from overseas arriving in our country with the Covid Virus.

These closures throughout Aus could have been, on the whole, avoided, if we did not bring infected people into the country without proper facilities in place to handle quarantine and treatment.

Simple international closures after the first out of control situation developed in Vic and to a lesser degree in other states, would have gone a long way to prevent our current situation.

We were too frightened to introduce strict rules which may have upset some but nowhere near as many as these closures and lockdowns are affecting now and well into the future.

Mike Harding · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Hi Rob.Good to see that great minds think alike,on occasions,at least. In your post above I have highlighted the facts,which are conveniently ignored or disputed by those who seem not to understand logic,or even commin sense.Surely it was impossible to distribute a product that had been ordered months earlier,but had not arrived.What part of "there was no bluddy vaccine available" do these idjits not understand? Cheers

Yobarr: it would be good if you could make a post which disagreed with others without calling them stupid or the like.

yobarr · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Hi Rob.Good to see that great minds think alike,on occasions,at least. In your post above I have highlighted the facts,which are conveniently ignored or disputed by those who seem not to understand logic,or even commin sense.Surely it was impossible to distribute a product that had been ordered months earlier,but had not arrived.What part of "there was no bluddy vaccine available" do these idjits not understand? Cheers
Yobarr: it would be good if you could make a post which disagreed with others without calling them stupid or the like.

Mike,instead of giving me unwanted advice on how to post,perhaps you could simply answer my question? What part of "there was no vaccine available" do these persons not understand?(Happy now?) Surely anyone who can remember their own name would understand that if vaccines were not able to be obtained, then obviously they were not able be distributed.Simple stuff really. As an aside,I often wonder about content in some of your posts,as,to me,they make no sense,but I just let it ride. Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 28th of July 2021 04:00:47 PM