How accurate is this? Thoughts?

aussie_paul · Guru

How accurate is this? Thoughts?

Wanda · Guru

All interesting points but I think most of those issues will get sorted out as we "slowly" move towards EVs.
I personally would take no notice of polys predictions and time lines, especially that clowns!
EVs are coming, slowly, but I suspect ICBs will see most of us out.
But I think you may have opened a can of worms all the same, going to buy some popcorn!
Ian biggrin

Rob Driver · Guru

Hi Aussie Paul,

You have raised some pertinent points there, there will be arguments from both sides as to their validity.

I have mentioned in several other topics on this forum that the rush at which we all seem to need to introduce new technology in the guise of us all saving the planet before 2035 is detrimental as there has not been enough forethought with regard to varying operational problems which may be experienced.

Your thoughts above Paul, certainly reinforce that none of these problems have been thought through.

When we actually get to 2030 will most Australians realise that once again we are being conned in as much as EVs arent green. They may be cheap to run once purchase price and replacement batteries has been removed from the equation, but they are not green. (Yet anyway)
It will be a courageous government that will close all non renewable power stations from the Australian grid in the next 8 years.

If, in fact they remain as green as John Cadogidans percentage indicates then what will it all be for. ICE vehicles will be around for a while yet.

EVs are an interesting prospect but their rapid introduction wont save the planet. Australia has no control as to what the major industrial powers of the world do with the use of non renewable power in the near future.

TheHeaths · Guru

I doubt it is very accurate at all Paul.

Like many things, it is a series of random thoughts, at the extreme end of the argument scale. As you are aware, I am certain similar arguments can be put in palce by those who want to see the end of the ICE. That's just the way things, and these sort of discussions, are.

As for me, I am glad I am 65, and not 15 the way things are. I will be interested to see how this thread develops!

-- Edited by TheHeaths on Sunday 2nd of January 2022 06:43:20 PM

landy · Guru

2) youre on the highway north to your holiday home, theres a crash up ahead which holds up traffic for hours. All the EVs are running low on power or have stalled altogether. This is adding to the chaos. To make things worse, its over 35 degrees and air cond has to be turned off to conserve power. Roadside assistance cant help because they cant get through the traffic snarl. People are abandoning their cars and walking home. The highway is going no where This also being reported in overseas snow affected areas where people are literally freezing to death in their EVs. Do you cancel all future holidays?

I'm not really sure why all the EV's will be running out of battery but the ICE would not be running out of petrol. After all their heaters and air cons will not work without the engine running.
LANDY

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Pile of bollocks.
Cheers,
Peter

peter67 · Guru

How thoughtful.
ps aussie paul, how I wish you could set that commentary to the sound track from 'war of the worlds'

Collo · Senior Member

Interesting to note that there is a EV in the Dakar rally this year.

Collo.

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Paul,

As stated by another member, it may very well be a pile of bollocks until just one of those quoted scenarios feature on the evening news.

Has anyone asked why the govt in Aus is pushing for 50% of vehicles being EVs by 2030.

Why the rush.? especially considering that EVs arent actually green and will have no effect on climate change in the immediate future.

50% of motorists not paying tax and gst on fuel, then, who pays? The Aus govt and its budget will need this money to continue operating.

At what point does a tax be introduced on EV users to make up for the 50% loss from fuel taxes.? I guess those who are boasting of lower operating costs at the moment will be the first to bleat that the new tax is unfair. I certainly know that those with ICE vehicles will be protesting for having to pay extra taxes so that those with EVs can feel warm and fuzzy even though EVs will not change global warming or even have much of any effect until China, India and other manufacturing countries tidy up their power generation methods.

Lets hope that Pauls list of possible scenarios does not eventuate in the real world or that if we get to a stage where these events may become real then we have all put into place, actions and safety procedures which will allow us to cope and more to the point, survive.

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

Paul,

Did you make up these scenarios or did you get them from some social media madness? Here are some answers to your incitefull questions:

1. Rubbish, modern EVs are no longer more of a fire danger than ICE vehicles.

2. This is just inciteful rubbish. Why pick on EVs? ICE vehicles will also run out of fuel if they are running their air-conditioning.

3. - 5. Where do you come up with this tripe?

6 & 7. Most people will charge their EVs at home.

8. The fire brigade will attend an EV fire.

9. Modern EVs and ICE vehicles rely on computers. Why pick on just EVs? They are not the only vehicles that will have autopilot.

10. Any decent government would sort out the revenues.

Well there it is. You've posted an inciteful thread and I fell for it. I suppose you're happy now. .

W

Whenarewethere · Guru

Not to forget that Australia has no redundancy in oil tankers. A fire on one boat & another one sinks for whatever reason, typical poor maintain or war, & our actual 9 day reserve, not include fuel in whipper snipper & chainsaw fuel tanks which the government counts as reserves, will be difficult to replace quickly.

We have infinitely more redundancy in electrical supplies even though the current state of networks leaves an awful lot to be desired.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Collo wrote:
Interesting to note that there is a EV in the Dakar rally this year.
Collo.

3 actually.

2 hydrogen powered and one with an ICE generator.

Cheers,

Peter

peter67 · Guru

Yes Peter out of curiosity I looked at the Audi E car in this years Dakar rally. The battery pack weighs 300 and something kilos, the kicker is they are using an onboard 2.0 ltr turbocharged ICE with a 300ltr fuel tank to charge the battery pack so they can do the 700 odd km stages. What's the bloody point?

ps Audi say they will recharge overnight in the desert with the greenest power source available...is that a diesel genset I can hear running in the background?

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

What is the point?
Development and testing. The hybrid nature of the vehicle also makes a very significant reduction in total fuel consumption (and emissions).
The hydrogen powered vehicles are 100% clean. That will be the technology of choice for long range vehicles.
Cheers,
Peter

watsea · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
What is the point?
Development and testing. The hybrid nature of the vehicle also makes a very significant reduction in total fuel consumption (and emissions).
The hydrogen powered vehicles are 100% clean. That will be the technology of choice for long range vehicles.
Cheers,
Peter

Sure, development and testing in very stressful conditions, that is how more knowledge is gained.

We know our normal hybrid vehicles have good fuel economy for ordinary road conditions.

So, does anyone know what fuel usage would be typical for a similar sized ICE vehicle in these Dakar Rally conditions?

For the hybrid Audi, if they used all the 300L of fuel in a 700km leg, the usage is 42.9 Litres/100km. Is that good fuel usage for those conditions?

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

I think any motor event similar to the Dakar Rally is an excellent testing ground for any new technology.

The results may be varied but once those figures are in the hands of promoters of vehicles with new technology then we have the problem.
The 300l of fossil fuel to charge the battery in an EV might just be lost behind the hype of how great the EV faired in such a rally.
Once again the true and real results are not comparing apples with apples.

However in saying what I just said if the EV performs well against its competitors and it is reported as doing so but the promoters do make mention that the only way to charge the EV was to run an ICE generator that used 300 l to achieve 700 klms then that is providing the truth and the full story.
This does not necessarily mean that the EV did not perform well but charging quickly and in a green manner could not be achieved during the event.

I wont bet that will be how the EV will be promoted by the media at the end of the event. We can wait and see, but in the meantime I can only imagine that the promoters will only provide facts that suit their agenda.
Once again can we be assured that the general public are actually being given the true facts on EVs overall performance?

I will keep my money for that bet in my pocket.

SoloMC · Senior Member

once you mentioned that scomo was involved, i read no further. he is a politician (we all know how pollies never lie) and has his own agenda, fossil fuel

deverall11 · Guru

aussie_paul wrote:
Subject: An Aussie EV World

Theres some serious questions concerning EV if they were to make up a majority of cars on Australian roads. According to Sco Mo, by 2030 EVs will account for 50% of all vehicle sales. Sounds popular if you dont consider the consequences. Just imagine if EVs were 50% today and you needed to apply it to some real life scenarios. Heres 10 examples to get you thinking.

1) youre aware fires are a big risk to recharging EVs. What do you do if you live in an apartment block and over half the underground car park is full of EVs. Move? Who pays for increased insurance. Who pays for the charging points. Should you consider parking your car on the street when you decide move away to a house. Worst still there have been incidents in public car parks where fires are becoming a regular occurrence. Do you now abandon your EV and take public transport but know many of the bus fleet have been taken out of service from fires. The govt now recommends you carry a fire extinguisher in your bag as a precaution and you should practice fire drills at home. And EVs are now banned from traveling to bush fire prone areas so National parks are off limits. Will Elon Musk come to our rescue?

2) youre on the highway north to your holiday home, theres a crash up ahead which holds up traffic for hours. All the EVs are running low on power or have stalled altogether. This is adding to the chaos. To make things worse, its over 35 degrees and air cond has to be turned off to conserve power. Roadside assistance cant help because they cant get through the traffic snarl. People are abandoning their cars and walking home. The highway is going no where This also being reported in overseas snow affected areas where people are literally freezing to death in their EVs. Do you cancel all future holidays?

3) youve just taken a call from your EV dealer telling you the main battery is redundant and needs to be replaced. The cost of a replacement exceeds the value of the car. The dealer also wants to bill you for dumping the old battery as its toxic. As a greenie do you take the old battery home and bury it in the backyard?

4) its in the middle of high power demand due to a heat wave. Power outages are the normal. Your car isnt charged but you need to get your sick child to hospital urgently. The ambulances are EV and unable to assist. They tell you to ride your bicycle to the nearest medical cente to get help. In desperation do you ask the govt to recommission the coal fired power stations even though youve signed up to climate change.

5) the Chinese have cornered rare metals necessary to make batteries. They hike up prices and cause major economic problems for western markets. All new cars imported into Australia are now made in China. Your current car is worthless as spare parts are non existent. You want the govt to do something so you blame it on the baby boomers. Fair?

6) you travel to the local shops where you normally charge your EV car. But the shopping centre wants to bill you at an exorbitant cost. And there arent any spare bays. They tell you to come back at mid night during the off peak but this means you need to sleep in your car and away from your family. Whos to blame?

7) you cant order an internal combustion engine vehicle any more due to govt regulations. But you live in a remote part of the country that doesnt have any EV infrastructure. Your local member is from the Greens and tells you to suck it up. You cant get your produce to market and your kids cant get to school. Farm output is suffering where its better to walk off than stay. In the meantime Sydney people in the trendy inner suburbs are starting to starve particularly as meat is now banned. Is this your fault?

8) theres a traffic incident up ahead. Its an EV and the doors wont open. The fire brigade wont go near it and tell everyone to stand back until emergency services arrive but theyre at least an hour away. Luckily no one is injured but the trapped family are starting to panic especially as the air conditioning isnt working. Do you sit there and send them text messages saying be patient.

9) youre driving your new EV and decide to engage the auto pilot. Alls good until you realize someone has hacked your system. They are steering your car to a back alley where bikies are menacing you for money. Non of your electronics are working so you cant call for help. They threaten you and your family unless you transfer $1m in bitcoin to an off shore account. No one believes you and the authorities say its your problem.

10) more and more people are driving EVs but arent paying road user taxes. This results in traditional drivers having to pay a higher proportion. As one of these people you are made to feel guilty with govt taxes being a threat to make you change to EV. In the meantime EV owners are seeing themselves as an elite class and call for public shaming on nightly television. Your home is regularly vandalized and your job is at risk. Youre unable to go to certain restaurants, shop outside normal hours and line up for petrol which is only available once a week by ration. Are you living in the lucky country?

All this seems a bit Orwellian and maybe over the top. But at the same time if not checked against the fairy at the bottom of the garden believers some of this could in fact happen.

Happy new year.

Mate, you need to remove yourself from the dinosaurs and realise how quick technical developments are happening. Good chance most of not all of your points have already been addressed. A bit like a phone book: out of date the day it goes to print.

deverall11 · Guru

SoloMC wrote:
once you mentioned that scomo was involved, i read no further. he is a politician (we all know how pollies never lie) and has his own agenda, fossil fuel

Yep, it's called TAX. He's not going to want to miss out. Wonder if he 'lies' straight in bed. Might have to ask Jenny? She may not know??????

dorian · Guru

I expect that the Norwegian experience would have already provided most of the answers.

peter67 · Guru

They have, and continue to do so. It's called the massive Norwegian Government tax payer dollars subsidy, period.

Are We Lost · Guru

Whether you believe in climate change or not does not matter. The change to EV and other power sources must come because the planet's oil reserves are limited. It is simply not possible that we will still be running petrol and diesel in our private cars in 50 years. What oil remains will be restricted to a limited number of authorised purposes or priced out of reach for most.

I liken the running out of oil supplies as similar to a cyclone coming. Nobody really wants the cyclone, but it's coming and it's unstoppable. So we have to deal with it. So start preparing now and accept that it will cost you.

Can you imagine the anger there will be from those living next century ..... "What. They used it ALL??". They will probably be digging up our rubbish dumps to find plastics and other materials that can be recycled. While humanity learns from the historical mistakes of the past, it does not change behaviour. Have you noticed the increasing quantity of plastics from supermarket supplies now going in the bin. Most is not recyclable. So much for banning those shopping bags.

But having said that, I am not ready to consider an alternate type of power for my own vehicle just yet. Maybe a hybrid in the next few years.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Our "around town" car is worth $500. Ehen I can change it to an ols EV for under $5,000, I will.
We have solar at home that is sufficient to run it, as many people already do.
Battery systems already have longer warranties than ICE motors and they are already cheaper to replace.
EVs will only get more attractive.
Cheers,
Peter

peter67 · Guru

If you have a diving ticket I've got some cheap Porsche EV's I can let you have.
ps refer to "fanning the flames" in I Digress.

Brodie Allen · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Pile of bollocks.
Cheers,
Peter

Then Peter, answer the points rather than puffing hot air.

I'd be interested in your argument.