Let’s just face the facts

Rob Driver · Guru

Let’s just face the facts

peter67 · Guru

That reads like a modern day horror story for thinking adults.

BasilB · Veteran Member

RE:

BasilB · Veteran Member

RE: Let’s just face the facts

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Another pile of biased and misleading BS.
Not worth the time for a detailed response.

EDIT... I will just direct anyone who is really interested to this... Northern Power Station (South Australia) - Wikipedia

A SA coal fired power station. Total life 31 years. 6 years after closure they are still clearing up the mess and they will never fix the thousands of hectares destrored at the coal mime.

Just read the list of pollutants from the power station.

Cheers,
Peter

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Thursday 17th of March 2022 01:51:38 PM

DeBe · Guru

It would be interesting to know what the wind farms actualy cost to run. Where i live there is one & the maintenance is on going year round. The amount of scrap coming from there is amazing, including lead acid AGM batterys. Every PSU to keep computing systems going in a black out, has 20 x 12V 12Ah in them to give 240V DC. One faulty cell & the lot are thrown out. I do find them handy as theres another 19 good batterys to use.

dorian · Guru

We need lots of real data from places where these technologies are prevalent, eg Norway for EVs and Portugal for wind farms.

dabbler · Guru

RE:

rgren2 · Guru

Let’s just face the facts

DeBe · Guru

Non rechargable batterys make electricity. Rechargable store electricity.

Rob Driver · Guru

BasilB wrote:
i'll try again,

power station 70% efficient, ev 80% efficient, ice 30% efficient when not stuck in traffic.

From above;

Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.

Rob Driver · Guru

DeBe wrote:
Non rechargable batterys make electricity. Rechargable store electricity.

From above;

A typical EV battery weighs one thousand pounds, about the size of a travel trunk. It contains twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside are over 6,000 individual lithium-ion cells.

It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth's crust for just - one - battery."

Sixty-eight percent of the world's cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?"

dogbox · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

Another pile of biased and misleading BS.
Not worth the time for a detailed response.
EDIT... I will just direct anyone who is really interested to this... Northern Power Station (South Australia) - Wikipedia
A SA coal fired power station. Total life 31 years. 6 years after closure they are still clearing up the mess and they will never fix the thousands of hectares destrored at the coal mime.
Just read the list of pollutants from the power station.

Cheers,
Peter

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Thursday 17th of March 2022 01:51:38 PM

i did not think the article was misleading ,it just pointed out that the new GREEN may not be as green as we first thought

Rob Driver · Guru

dabbler wrote:
Huge assumption that 1) EV are charged from the grid, 2) that EV purchasers prioritize the environment over cost of ownership and 3) that EV ownership is uniformly distributed across a nation. Not sure about 3 in OZ. But 1 is demonstrably incorrect as EV ownership is primarily driven by cost of ownership. In my case, my rooftop solar feeds the grid and charges my EV. Let's face facts: EG are here, EV are staying, EV are improving at the greater rate than ICE ever managed.

Dabbler,

Your point with regard to your own personal solar system is basically quite valid.

If the problem was addressed with every EV manufacturer supplying a stand alone solar charging system with every car that made the EV vehicle totally independent of relying on power from a grid then a claim of EVs being *green* might be justified, except of course in the manufacture of the *green* vehicle we seem to ignore THAT COST to the claim of being *green*

Todays technology is happening at a greater rate than we ever could dream of 100 years ago so it stands to reason that any technology will advance at a greater rate than we could achieve in the past.

There is one big difference with EVs is the way that this advancement in technology is reported to the public.

Any result due to fear mongering that the world will end, will forever be an inaccurate report of the true result of EVs on our earth.

Rob Driver · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Another pile of biased and misleading BS.
Not worth the time for a detailed response.
EDIT... I will just direct anyone who is really interested to this... Northern Power Station (South Australia) - Wikipedia
A SA coal fired power station. Total life 31 years. 6 years after closure they are still clearing up the mess and they will never fix the thousands of hectares destrored at the coal mime.
Just read the list of pollutants from the power station.

Cheers,
Peter

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Thursday 17th of March 2022 01:51:38 PM

Peter,

It is far from BS. It is far from misleading or biased.

From above;

For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive production costs.

It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth's crust for just - one - battery."

Sixty-eight percent of the world's cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?"

Your comparison to the brown coal mine in Leigh Creek when at the same time ignoring practices with the mines throughout the world extracting products so *greenies* get that warm and fuzzy feeling about EVs is at the best very irresponsible and really highlights the selfishness of *green* supporters.

Just one question if I may,

I have read that you are building a new OKA.

How will this new vehicle be powered?
Will it be powered with this new technology that has massive demand on resources which the use of is presently being ignored with comments of BS etc,

or will it just have a modern Diesel engine?

Rob Driver · Guru

DeBe wrote:
It would be interesting to know what the wind farms actualy cost to run. Where i live there is one & the maintenance is on going year round. The amount of scrap coming from there is amazing, including lead acid AGM batterys. Every PSU to keep computing systems going in a black out, has 20 x 12V 12Ah in them to give 240V DC. One faulty cell & the lot are thrown out. I do find them handy as theres another 19 good batterys to use.

Without the gain of the batteries that have not yet failed, here are some wind farm facts with regard to failure.

https://www.cotes.com/blog/most-common-reasons-for-wind-turbine-failures

Rob Driver · Guru

peter67 wrote:
That reads like a modern day horror story for thinking adults.

Peter67,

It is a horror story with an attached cost that will financially cripple future Australians.

A simple example is the comment by the leader of the opposition in Aus, when he stated that EVs will be good as we can plug them into a solar panel overnight and they will be good to go the next morning.

For this even to be partly correct, every EV owner or operator will have to have a similar system to what is being used by dabbler in an above post.

Then even with that system, it does not take into account the hidden facts of horror in extracting minerals to manufacture these *green* products.

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

No comparisons. Where're the details about the emissions and pollution for fossil fuels and oil spills?

It's fair enough to say that EVs are not zero emissions but I read somewhere that they emit 50% of the equivalent ICE vehicle over their lifetimes and even less when renewable energy is used to charge them. It's a step to save the planet.

These are the same old arguments being brought up time and time again. Give it a break. Do is all a favour Rob and stop using batteries.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Less so than the original post, in my view.
Cheers,
Peter

BasilB · Veteran Member

BasilB wrote:
i'll try again,

power station 70% efficient, ev 80% efficient, ice 30% efficient when not stuck in traffic.

From above;

Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.

__________________

Regards

Rob

Chairman of the Bored

yes, that's right.

-- Edited by BasilB on Friday 18th of March 2022 01:06:41 PM

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

BasilB wrote:
Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.

Except that the electric vehicle will actually require significantly less energy input in real life, because it has regenerative braking, which also increases the life of brake pads and discs substantially.

Cheers,

Peter

BasilB · Veteran Member

BasilB wrote:

Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.

Except that the electric vehicle will actually require significantly less energy input in real life, because it has regenerative braking, which also increases the life of brake pads and discs substantially.

Cheers,

Peter

not to mention the ice inefficiencies.

Rob Driver · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
BasilB wrote:
Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.
Except that the electric vehicle will actually require significantly less energy input in real life, because it has regenerative braking, which also increases the life of brake pads and discs substantially.
Cheers,
Peter

Isnt the advancement in modern technology just marvellous.

What a shame some of this effort wasn't applied to the mining of the resources to make it comply with basic expectations of humanity so as to enable your *green dream* to be fulfilled.

While we are on the subject, you have not yet answered my enquiry to you in an above post.

Will the new OkA be totally green as per your definition or is this a case of instructing others without the abstinence we might all expect from the preacher.

Waiting with baited breath biggrin

BasilB · Veteran Member

Isnt the advancement in modern technology just marvellous.

What a shame some of this effort wasn't applied to the mining of the resources to make it comply with basic expectations of humanity so as to enable your *green dream* to be fulfilled.

While we are on the subject, you have not yet answered my enquiry to you in an above post.

Will the new OkA be totally green as per your definition or is this a case of instructing others without the abstinence we might all expect from the preacher.

Waiting with baited breath biggrin

__________________

Regards

Rob

or you could just tell us about e=mc2 again. big grin.

Rob Driver · Guru

BasilB said

or you could just tell us about e=mc2 again. big grin.

For One Hundred years motor vehicles have had generators and later alternators
That is technology.
This provided the charge to the battery for starting, lights etc.

EVs had no alternator because they didnt have a battery as such for starting. Then, once again technology came to the fore and harnessed the power that has been wasted in the vehicle (momentum) braking and directed this saving to the big climate unfriendly battery bank that stores the power from a non renewable source in the majority of occasions.

I believe similar technology has been used or at least experimented with in motor racing and with heavy machinery and trucks with retarders fitted. So probably not that newer technology but so be it,

OK so with a big grin smile we have that sorted.

Now are you *not so green greenies* going to change Einsteins formula to suit your agenda

In your confused state what you and the bloke who raised this point and primed you to comment needs to know that grasping at straws by attempting to change Einsteins Formula wont change the truth in the original post in this topic.

Harnessing the power of momentum is not that new or surprising.

While you are pondering this, get your mate to answer my question.

BasilB · Veteran Member

For One Hundred years motor vehicles have had generators and later alternators
That is technology.
This provided the charge to the battery for starting, lights etc.

EVs had no alternator because they didnt have a battery as such for starting. Then, once again technology came to the fore and harnessed the power that has been wasted in the vehicle (momentum) braking and directed this saving to the big climate unfriendly battery bank that stores the power from a non renewable source in the majority of occasions.

I believe similar technology has been used or at least experimented with in motor racing and with heavy machinery and trucks with retarders fitted. So probably not that newer technology but so be it,

OK so with a big grin smile we have that sorted.

Now are you *not so green greenies* going to change Einsteins formula to suit your agenda no

In your confused state what you and the bloke who raised this point and primed you to comment needs to know that grasping at straws by attempting to change Einsteins Formula wont change the truth in the original post in this topic.

Harnessing the power of momentum is not that new or surprising.

While you are pondering this, get your mate to answer my question.

__________________

Regards

Rob

a little catch up on efficiencies is required first i think. big grin

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Rob Driver wrote:
Will the new OkA be totally green as per your definition or is this a case of instructing others without the abstinence we might all expect from the preacher.

Not totally green, but it will be more effcient than its predecessor.

Almost all house power will be solar. No gas. Cooking will be solar powered induction. It will have 1,2000W+ of solar. Hot water will be via waste heat from the motor or solar via an inverter. Back up power will be via the alternator. No generator will be carried.

I expect that within 10 years it will be possible to convert vehicles like this to hydrogen/electric.

Cheers,

Peter

Are We Lost · Guru

For those who are negative to electric vehicles, what would you suggest we do to prepare for the day when there is no more oil? Or because the supply is so limited that it is priced out of existence for the average person. That WILL happen. Predictions on climate change and the impact of pollution leave room for doubt, but we know the supply of oil is limited. To me that is the justification that we need to move from our reliance on oil.

I see the point of the original post about how "green" energy is really not so green at all. Whether those figures quoted are accurate or not, there can be no doubt that digging up and extracting all those resources is far from green. Then add the manufacturing, transport and disposal. So those green solutions are not green at all. Perhaps they are just less dirty than using oil and coal.

But, it has to come. Even if the process IS dirtier than extracting oil and burning it ....the oil IS going to run out so we have no choice.

When the time comes that oil powered vehicles are in the minority, the next targets will be those dirty "green" solutions that many are singing the praises of now. What then? Any solution so far dreamed up has its own impact on the environment.

The elephant in the room is population growth and the consumerism that goes with it. But nobody is talking about it. And the impacts are now, not in some future time like the climate change predictions.

dorian · Guru

Nuclear fusion is on the horizon. That will be a game changer.

Until then, another good reason to wean ourselves off oil and fossil fuels is to free ourselves from the political powers that control it. If we didn't need Arab oil, nobody would have fought a war in Iraq. If Europe didn't need Russian gas, then Putin may not have invaded Ukraine.'

Rob Driver · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Rob Driver wrote:
Will the new OkA be totally green as per your definition or is this a case of instructing others without the abstinence we might all expect from the preacher.

Not totally green, but it will be more effcient than its predecessor.
Almost all house power will be solar. No gas. Cooking will be solar powered induction. It will have 1,2000W+ of solar. Hot water will be via waste heat from the motor or solar via an inverter. Back up power will be via the alternator. No generator will be carried.
I expect that within 10 years it will be possible to convert vehicles like this to hydrogen/electric.
Cheers,
Peter

Thank you for the description,

I note it is mostly along the lines of a well thought out caravan. I would imagine that there is a great saving in costs if you are doing it yourself.

It is a shame that more van manufacturers dont adopt some of your ideas.

It is also a shame that the diesel bowser will still feature as a necessity in its operation.