Robots for the aging

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

Robots for the aging

TheHeaths · Guru

Im afraid I would not support or want the use of robots or AI beings in place of human assistance.

I consider a couple of the more important considerations in a persons aged care to be human caring contact, and getting time with other people for social interaction, not some preprogrammed or algorithmic response.

Using robots would remove what I consider necessary things for the aged person, and soon enough we would find more and younger people being abandoned to the non human care, for the expedience and cost savings.

If we cant be better than that, then we really are in trouble.

deverall11 · Guru

TheHeaths wrote:
Im afraid I would not support or want the use of robots or AI beings in place of human assistance.

I consider a couple of the more important considerations in a persons aged care to be human caring contact, and getting time with other people for social interaction, not some preprogrammed or algorithmic response.

Using robots would remove what I consider necessary things for the aged person, and soon enough we would find more and younger people being abandoned to the non human care, for the expedience and cost savings.

If we cant be better than that, then we really are in trouble.

You may not have a choice given that the village idiot running the country couldn't care less about people who have worked all their life,

paid the adequate amount of tax, some even have super and are now asking to be looked after in their hour of need. He has so much super

and other benefits he doesn't see how the rest of us live. The only time a similar issue came up was when we had crocodile tear about a

brother in law with some debilitating condition. Or Jenny has endometriosis.

Further more, robots don't get sick, don't need annual holidays, work 24/7 and don't go on strike for pay rises.

-- Edited by deverall11 on Sunday 17th of April 2022 04:57:57 PM

peter67 · Guru

Buzz, you could do worse than read Adam Kays book "This is going to hurt", it would give you a much better feel for the conversation.

86GTS · Guru

Heart attacks run in my family, they just drop.
Hopefully that will happen to me as well.
The thought of hanging around for years being a pain in the arse to everyone isn't attractive to me.

dogbox · Guru

deverall11 wrote:

TheHeaths wrote:
Im afraid I would not support or want the use of robots or AI beings in place of human assistance.

I consider a couple of the more important considerations in a persons aged care to be human caring contact, and getting time with other people for social interaction, not some preprogrammed or algorithmic response.

Using robots would remove what I consider necessary things for the aged person, and soon enough we would find more and younger people being abandoned to the non human care, for the expedience and cost savings.

If we cant be better than that, then we really are in trouble.
You may not have a choice given that the village idiot running the country couldn't care less about people who have worked all their life,
paid the adequate amount of tax, some even have super and are now asking to be looked after in their hour of need. He has so much super
and other benefits he doesn't see how the rest of us live. The only time a similar issue came up was when we had crocodile tear about a
brother in law with some debilitating condition. Or Jenny has endometriosis.
Further more, robots don't get sick, don't need annual holidays, work 24/7 and don't go on strike for pay rises.

-- Edited by deverall11 on Sunday 17th of April 2022 04:57:57 PM

the theory that anyone at ,past or near retirement has payed enough tax to cover what is payed out in OAP or care in a nursing home may not have a solid case if you start to do the numbers

Phlipper · Senior Member

deverall11 wrote:
TheHeaths wrote:

Further more, robots don't get sick, don't need annual holidays, work 24/7 and don't go on strike for pay rises.

-- Edited by deverall11 on Sunday 17th of April 2022 04:57:57 PM

Yes and No...... Robots dont get sick ? ... but they can breakdown, malfunction, perhaps from a Computer Virus. Probably also need to go offline when needing a recharge { and just where will the plug in recharge port be on a Robot hahaha }

-- Edited by Phlipper on Monday 18th of April 2022 08:53:29 AM

KevinJ · Senior Member

Robots don't pay tax or purchase things from the local deli either.

Rob Driver · Guru

TheHeaths wrote:
Im afraid I would not support or want the use of robots or AI beings in place of human assistance.

I consider a couple of the more important considerations in a persons aged care to be human caring contact, and getting time with other people for social interaction, not some preprogrammed or algorithmic response.

Using robots would remove what I consider necessary things for the aged person, and soon enough we would find more and younger people being abandoned to the non human care, for the expedience and cost savings.

If we cant be better than that, then we really are in trouble.

Plus ONE for Ians comments.

It appears that some replies refer to robots involved in the care of the elderly.

Well thinking along the lines of reverse engineering, how about having a robot raise a child from birth.

Yes, that is as ridiculous as having one care for us in old age.

I might add that wether Sam or Buzz agrees or not with my comments, my post is not off topic, as was recently called by him in another topic, once again it only reflects anothers opinion.

dorian · Guru

The Home Care program is quite good.

For example, you can purchase pre-cooked home delivered meals which are subsidised by Home Care, so that you end up paying only 30% of the cost. This means that you can get a dinner for $3 or a smaller meal for $1.50, with variations in between.

Coles and Woolies will deliver groceries to your door. I believe Home Care will pay the delivery costs and monthly subscription fees.

You can do all your banking via phone or Internet.

You can keep in touch with friends via email, and your Internet costs are subsidised by Centrelink.

Most goods can be purchased on-line and delivered to your door.

We have Telehealth which means that we don't need to visit the doctor for script renewals. Online pharmacies will deliver medicines to your door without charge.

The community nurse will visit you at home if you are infirm.

Home Care will provide a wheelchair, electric bed, rollator, and all sorts of mobility aids.

Home Care workers will accompany you to your appointments, they will take you shopping, they will assist you with toileting, clean and vacuum your house, toilets, shower, bath, etc.

You can vote from home by registering for postal voting.

Home Care will mow your lawn, clean your gutters, pay for your gardening, pay for non-slip surfacing of your driveway, provide ramps, handrails, bath and shower modifications, modifications to kitchen and laundry taps.

If you are lonely, Home Care can even provide companions to spend time with you.

In-home podiatry care is also provided.

In short I think there are plenty of services which facilitate independent living at home.

-- Edited by dorian on Monday 18th of April 2022 08:54:16 AM

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Dorian has given us a good report on care provided in the home for the elderly.

It most certainly encourages those who have the ability to do so to stay in their home rather than move into a nursing or aged care facility.

As with most media reports we only ever hear the worse situations as no one wants to hear a good story.
Therefore we never hear about the aged care facilities that are correctly managed and provide excellent services to our aged.

Many aged care homes are privately owned and operated and therein can lay the problem. They are a business who for the most part, profit is the utmost importance.
Blaming Federal or State governments or the nurses and employed staff wont solve the problems that are apparent in some private nursing homes.

Now we have got that out in the open I would like to point out that in my opinion, the topic posted by Buzz or the new SAM or what ever we may now know him as, was posted to be controversial and create argument on the forum.
Even he knows that a robot or any machine for that matter is totally unable to show the compassion required by those who care for our elderly.

In hindsight his new topic should not have attracted any replies but he has once again achieved a result.

I guess the next step we hear is that many members have PMd him in support.

Over to you SAM.

dorian · Guru

I don't view BL's post as argumentative. I think it is a legitimate topic of conversation. In fact the links he provided show that this idea has progressed far beyond the initial conversational stage and is being implemented in other countries.

One of the good points is in relation to dementia sufferers. I don't think any carer would like the idea of being the constant companion of such a patient. It would be soul destroying. I'm a carer, and I burnt out long ago. Without Home care to support me, I would be in a mental hospital and my mother would be in an aged care facility.

I think we need to look beyond today. In the future I think that driverless cars will be the norm rather than the contentious issue that they are at present. How far away can a Blade Runner replicant be?

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

As I clearly posted:

'We know it's not good for one's health to isolate oneself ( https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-8721.01232 ) People need social interaction and Robots can provide some of this: https://www.roboticsanalyst.com/blog/robot-companions-for-the-elderly '

And

'I'm not suggesting that one should get one of these robots and go bush. People need human interaction or they become COBs (cranky old buggers) who criticise everything.'

These robots could ASSIST in helping the care of the elderly. Some of the Robots in the links look like toy animals that could keep people company and instill a feeling of happiness. Especially in people with dementia. They certainly would not become frustrated and abusive like some careers as identified in the royal commission.

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 18th of April 2022 10:17:10 AM

dorian · Guru

Maybe we should look at this topic in less emotive terms. Can we all accept the idea that future generations will have robots as domestic servants? If so, then the idea of a robot as a personal carer may not be such a big leap for them. In fact they may just see it as a logical extension.

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

dorian wrote:
I don't view BL's post as argumentative. I think it is a legitimate topic of conversation. In fact the links he provided show that this idea has progressed far beyond the initial conversational stage and is being implemented in other countries.

One of the good points is in relation to dementia sufferers. I don't think any carer would like the idea of being the constant companion of such a patient. It would be soul destroying. I'm a carer, and I burnt out long ago. Without Home care to support me, I would be in a mental hospital and my mother would be in an aged care facility.

I think we need to look beyond today. In the future I think that driverless cars will be the norm rather than the contentious issue that they are at present. How far away can a Blade Runner replicant be?

In essence his post is fine if he and others need to imagine the future then go right ahead.

My view that was very convenient for him to apply his future world dreams to aged care on This Forum just to get a reaction. He would get little reaction on a forum where the mean age might be 20 to 30.

Dorian if you really believe that a robot will replace a nurse then god help us all.

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

Rob Driver wrote:
TheHeaths wrote:
Im afraid I would not support or want the use of robots or AI beings in place of human assistance.

I consider a couple of the more important considerations in a persons aged care to be human caring contact, and getting time with other people for social interaction, not some preprogrammed or algorithmic response.

Using robots would remove what I consider necessary things for the aged person, and soon enough we would find more and younger people being abandoned to the non human care, for the expedience and cost savings.

If we cant be better than that, then we really are in trouble.
Plus ONE for Ians comments.
It appears that some replies refer to robots involved in the care of the elderly.
Well thinking along the lines of reverse engineering, how about having a robot raise a child from birth.
Yes, that is as ridiculous as having one care for us in old age.
I might add that wether Sam or Buzz agrees or not with my comments, my post is not off topic, as was recently called by him in another topic, once again it only reflects anothers opinion.

Resorted to name calling have you?

Regarding the other topic, (well it appears that I can't access that topic anymore) but I was trying to avoid any controversy by stating in the OP that it is NOT to discuss climate change nor an individual countries contribution but how climate change is a contribution to future poverty and the conditions that people will have to endure as inequality gets worse. I did not want arguments about climate change but to show what the future will be like. That is why I stated that some posts were off topic to try and prevent the aggressive comments.

And the first rule topic? I'm not trying to become a moderator. I'm just pointing out that many topics get closed because they are deemed political but no one appears to get 'cancelled' for disobeying the first rule of just being polite.

It appears that a few people feel that they have a right to make racial, misogynistic, abusive and in general, socially unacceptable behaviour and are allowed to get away with it. But now I appear not to be able to view that topic.

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 18th of April 2022 10:42:10 AM

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 18th of April 2022 10:52:07 AM

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

This is off topic but I'm just trying to ask people to be nice when they post anything on this forum. Is that too much to ask?

In my opinion theheaths and Dorian's comments are polite even though they disagrees with my OP.

However, in my opinion, clarky1 and Rob driver's comments are not polite.

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 18th of April 2022 10:49:54 AM

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 18th of April 2022 10:51:03 AM

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Further to my post above, I too, have been close to a dementia patient and also another with Parkinsons disease and it is very saddening and quite disturbing to say the least.
My wife is a carer and that task is extremely demanding on anyone who may be placed in that situation.
The care of a loved one by a robot would not be acceptable in most cases.

As usual some people insist to throw money at a given problem which in this case is invested in new robot technology when as a society we have not exhausted the potential to find a cure for Dimentia or Parkinsons disease.Just look at the advancement in the treatment of many cancers in the last 50 years.

Lets cure the cause BEFORE we manipulate the effect.

Lets look after our elderly with the care and respect that they deserve.. Fu#&en robots.get real.

Rob Driver · Guru

Clarky 1 wrote:
Further to my post above, I too, have been close to a dementia patient and also another with Parkinsons disease and it is very saddening and quite disturbing to say the least.
My wife is a carer and that task is extremely demanding on anyone who may be placed in that situation.
The care of a loved one by a robot would not be acceptable in most cases.

As usual some people insist to throw money at a given problem which in this case is invested in new robot technology when as a society we have not exhausted the potential to find a cure for Dimentia or Parkinsons disease.Just look at the advancement in the treatment of many cancers in the last 50 years.

Lets cure the cause BEFORE we manipulate the effect.

Lets look after our elderly with the care and respect that they deserve.. Fu#&en robots.get real.

Great comments Stu

You speak a lot of truth and common sense.

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Thanks Rob,

It is good to see you back mate, hope the hospital visits are going ok for you.

Take care old mate.

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

dorian wrote:
Maybe we should look at this topic in less emotive terms. Can we all accept the idea that future generations will have robots as domestic servants? If so, then the idea of a robot as a personal carer may not be such a big leap for them. In fact they may just see it as a logical extension.

Definitely, robots are already part of our lives. I just thought that robots in aged care would be more relevant to some on this forum. I would personally prefer a robot at home them an abuser in aged care.

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 18th of April 2022 11:20:05 AM

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
This is off topic but I'm just trying to ask people to be nice when they post anything on this forum. Is that too much to ask?

In my opinion theheaths and Dorian's comments are polite even though they disagrees with my OP.

However, in my opinion, clarky1 and Rob driver's comments are not polite.

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 18th of April 2022 10:49:54 AM

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 18th of April 2022 10:51:03 AM

I can now add a three;

Adding extra comments in an edit after it has been quoted is not good manners on any forum.

You as a self appointed moderator should know that.

Maybe you could start an online forum for retirees and travellers who generally operate caravans and motor homes and talk Robots, Global Warming and any other scattered thought that pops into your head. Then you can moderate it to your hearts content.
In fact you only need to have those on there that agree with your views.

The truth does hurt sometimes and we all have to deal with it.

Whenarewethere · Guru

My sister & I looked after a dying parent from cancer in 2004. To make our lives a bit easier we hired a carer overnight. We would have got a nurse if one was available. My sister then was actually a retired nurse who had enough of the failed system &. It was costing us $7000 a week.

Whenarewethere · Guru

Can robots clean the toilet?

Rob Driver · Guru

Clarky 1 wrote:
Thanks Rob,

It is good to see you back mate, hope the hospital visits are going ok for you.

Take care old mate.

Yes all is not going too bad at the moment thanks Stu.

Give us a call, not urgent. When you are in range will be fine.

Travel safe mate.

dorian · Guru

Let's stop calling them robots. Instead let's refer to them as mobility aids, or independence aids, or just plain machines.

Is there anyone among us who would choose to burden others if there was a way to live independently? If you were a paraplegic and you were given a choice between a motorised scooter or an ordinary wheelchair, which would you choose? If an electric bed could lift you out of bed, would you rather that a nurse be at your beck and call to do the same, especially if you're one of us who all too frequently needs to empty his bladder?

I think we're all capable of accepting a seat on two wheels with a battery and a joystick, but when we give it a human likeness and a human voice, and perhaps some intelligent interactive software, it ceases to be a machine and instead becomes something to be reviled and feared, ie a "robot". Imagine a scooter that goes where you tell it to, and which asks you which way to turn when you arrive at an intersection. Is it still just a scooter, or is it now a robot?

Imagine if you've been living the lifestyle of the Jetsons. "Rosie" has been your housemaid since you were a child. Now you're entering your twilight years and Rosie Mark VI is your personal carer. She still vacuums the floor, but she now attends to your mobility needs. I think future generations will be so used to having AI powered machines about the house that the transition to personal care will be seamless.

People revile in horror because they see automation as a replacement for human interaction, but I think there is a way to combine technology and personal care without jeopardising our humanity. In fact there is nothing in BL's opening post which would suggest that anyone is advocating a total replacement of the human element. Even when you have a live-in carer, that carer has his or her own life, too. They won't always be around to respond to your physical needs, but a robot will.

I can see both sides of the conversation. There will always be a need for Home Care or a live-in carer, even if it is primarily an emotional one. However, machines can reduce the burden on everyone involved, and the increased level of independence can only benefit a person's self esteem.

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

Clarky 1 wrote:
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
This is off topic but I'm just trying to ask people to be nice when they post anything on this forum. Is that too much to ask?

In my opinion theheaths and Dorian's comments are polite even though they disagrees with my OP.

However, in my opinion, clarky1 and Rob driver's comments are not polite.

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 18th of April 2022 10:49:54 AM

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 18th of April 2022 10:51:03 AM
I can now add a three;
Adding extra comments in an edit after it has been quoted is not good manners on any forum.
You as a self appointed moderator should know that.
Maybe you could start an online forum for retirees and travellers who generally operate caravans and motor homes and talk Robots, Global Warming and any other scattered thought that pops into your head. Then you can moderate it to your hearts content.
In fact you only need to have those on there that agree with your views.
The truth does hurt sometimes and we all have to deal with it.

I have no idea what your first three sentences mean.

Contrary to the rest of your post, I do accept that people can have opposite opinions. However, it's best for those opinions to be expressed in a civil way. Such as what theheaths and Dorian have done. Opposite views are healthy. It advances science and technology but the views can be made civilly without abuse.

Mike Harding · Guru

Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
Opposite views are healthy.

Unless they are about climate change :)

Mike Harding · Guru

Isaac Asimov wrote an excellent novel exploring this dilemma called "I, Robot":

Plot synopsis