Ukraine: Is it time for a no-fly zone?

Mike Harding · Guru

Ukraine: Is it time for a no-fly zone?

Clarky 1 · Senior Member

Mike Harding wrote:
Russian behaviour in and regarding Ukraine has been appalling and doesn't look likely to change in the near future.
It seems probable Finland and Sweden will apply for NATO membership within the year, probably some of the small ex Soviet satellites too; this will anger Russian leadership greatly and with unpredictable consequences.
Russia has, yesterday, delivered "a note" to the American government warning it about providing arms for Ukraine and stating such behaviour may have "unintended consequences". I take that to mean Russia may attack convoys delivering said arms. God alone knows what the outcome of that will be!
Therefore is it time for NATO to implement a no-fly zone over Ukraine as its government has been seeking since the conflict started? Not only would this assist Ukraine but it would also force Russia into bearing full responsibility for its actions so far ie. no doubt it would not be long before a Russian aircraft was shot down by a NATO aircraft and the question then becomes "What are you going to do now Vlad?!"
Better, perhaps, to bring things to a head at a time of our choosing rather than that of Russia.

Have to agree with you.

The USA would have a major influence in making this happen if the leader had some gonads.

erad · Guru

I very much fear that we are all on the verge of WW3, and this is not going to be very pretty at all. I heard on the news this morning that the Russians are pulling back from Kiev. I am worried that Vlad may pop a low yield nuke into Kiev, and he is getting his troops out so they don't get nuked as well. Then he will go back and scoop up the pieces of what is left. The idiot is capable of such bastardry. What will happen after that is anyone's guess, but it is certain that something will happen and sooner rather than later.

deverall11 · Guru

erad wrote:
I very much fear that we are all on the verge of WW3, and this is not going to be very pretty at all. I heard on the news this morning that the Russians are pulling back from Kiev. I am worried that Vlad may pop a low yield nuke into Kiev, and he is getting his troops out so they don't get nuked as well. Then he will go back and scoop up the pieces of what is left. The idiot is capable of such bastardry. What will happen after that is anyone's guess, but it is certain that something will happen and sooner rather than later.

Maybe it's time Russia was wiped off the map. Guess Vlad cannot ignore his Cossack ancestry. Must be in his DNA.

Whenarewethere · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
Therefore is it time for NATO to implement a no-fly zone over Ukraine as its government has been seeking since the conflict started?

Probably no need to as 165 aircraft & 146 helicopters have been shot down. Russia will be into the dregs of their air platforms which haven't been maintained for decades as the funds have been raked off by the few.

The pride of their Navy was a 4 decade old boat covered in bandaids to keep it going. The other day Ukraine shot down a $15m helicopter with a $100 weapon.

Whenarewethere · Guru

Putin will want at least something to show for all his losses by 9th of May.

Mike Harding · Guru

Whenarewethere wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Therefore is it time for NATO to implement a no-fly zone over Ukraine as its government has been seeking since the conflict started?
Probably no need to as 165 aircraft & 146 helicopters have been shot down. Russia will be into the dregs of their air platforms which haven't been maintained

You misunderstand: if NATO shoot down a Russian aircraft Putin is placed in a situation where he must either respond with force against NATO or back down. Either decision has enormous implications.

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
Whenarewethere wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Therefore is it time for NATO to implement a no-fly zone over Ukraine as its government has been seeking since the conflict started?
Probably no need to as 165 aircraft & 146 helicopters have been shot down. Russia will be into the dregs of their air platforms which haven't been maintained
You misunderstand: if NATO shoot down a Russian aircraft Putin is placed in a situation where he must either respond with force against NATO or back down. Either decision has enormous implications.

That would be very bad indeed. Although it would appear on paper that the USA, along with the other NATO members, would be the more powerful and winning force, Putin might just use nuclear weapons because of that overwhelming military power. It would certainly shake up NATO which may be what Putin is looking for.

He may also suddenly find an alli in China?

dorian · Guru

Turkey shot down a Russian plane that flew into its airspace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown

"A Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter jet shot down a Russian Sukhoi Su-24M attack aircraft near the SyriaTurkey border on 24 November 2015.^[1]^[2] According to Turkey, the aircraft was fired upon while in Turkish airspace because it violated the border up to a depth of 2.19 kilometres (1.36 miles) for about 17 seconds after being warned to change its heading 10 times over a period of five minutes before entering the airspace."

"The incident was the first destruction of a Russian or Soviet Air Forces warplane by a NATO member state since an attack on the Sui-ho Dam during the Korean War in 1953.^[11]^[12]^[13] Reactions to the incident included denunciation from Russia and an attempt to defuse the situation by NATO afterwards. Russia deployed the guided missile cruiser Moskva ..."

-- Edited by dorian on Monday 18th of April 2022 05:29:40 PM

Whenarewethere · Guru

NATO doesn't need to be involved. Ukraine has been knocking $15m helicopters out of the sky with $100 weapons in some cases.

The current Tsar will do what previous ones have done. Returning soldiers from WW2 were eliminated.

So with intelligentsia eliminated, generals eliminated & bullet catchers eliminated.

The Tsar will be eliminated internally, as previously.

Dicko1 · Senior Member

With a total ban of Russian media reporting on the war internally the Russian people will be fed state propaganda that will say how they have lost very few soldiers, only a few bits of machinery and have the Ukrainians on the run. I would say the Russian people have little idea about what is actually happening. Wont be any mention of the atrocities carried out by the bastard military. No mention of low moral and huge losses. I only hope pootin stops breathing air very soon.

Phlipper · Senior Member

Any decision that aggravates Putin, will result in disaster for all. The cost/ongoing hazards for victory over Russia would be vast, maybe unrecoverable. Very difficult to assess which path to go down by any leader.

DMaxer · Guru

I don't think Putin is silly enough to take on the USA and NATO. It has been demonstrated that he is unable to conquer Ukraine and although he has a massive nuclear arsenal, so does the USA and the UK. that in itself is the deterrent.

I think the west will just contain him with sanctions until Russia implodes. War is very expensive and Russia only has an economy the size of our own one. The days of massive armies does not mean much anymore. A submarine sitting a thousand kilometres away can land one fair in their lap. Trying to keep supplies up is also a major issue, just look at the issues the Russians are having in that regard and they are close to their own border.

I think what Putin is saying and his sabre rattling is all about keeping control in his own country.

-- Edited by DMaxer on Tuesday 19th of April 2022 09:03:19 AM

Whenarewethere · Guru

I think there is a bit of Western... just help Ukraine enough to dissolve Russian resources without us spending too much.

Due to Russian soldiers selling fuel to buy food & alcohol it doesn't take a lot to undermine morale of soldiers who haven't been paid.

It doesn't help Russian that morale either that Russia is sticking its dead soldiers in mobile crematoriums to make dead bullet catchers disappear so death in war compensation is not paid to save Russia a lot of funds.

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

I read somewhere Ukraine is using mobile phone signals to kill the Russian generals, amongst others, and to monitor troup movements.

Rob Driver · Guru

Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
I read somewhere Ukraine is using mobile phone signals to kill the Russian generals, amongst others, and to monitor troup movements.

Would I be offensive in asking for your source of this information?

Thank you in anticipation..

Mike Harding · Guru

Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
I read somewhere Ukraine is using mobile phone signals to kill the Russian generals, amongst others, and to monitor troup movements.

I do wonder Lightbulb... whether you are a bot....

dorian · Guru

Rob Driver wrote:
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
I read somewhere Ukraine is using mobile phone signals to kill the Russian generals, amongst others, and to monitor troup movements.
Would I be offensive in asking for your source of this information?
Thank you in anticipation..

Wait no longer.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2315553-russia-and-ukraine-are-both-weaponising-mobile-phones-to-track-troops/

Rob Driver · Guru

dorian wrote:
Rob Driver wrote:
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
I read somewhere Ukraine is using mobile phone signals to kill the Russian generals, amongst others, and to monitor troup movements.
Would I be offensive in asking for your source of this information?
Thank you in anticipation..
Wait no longer.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2315553-russia-and-ukraine-are-both-weaponising-mobile-phones-to-track-troops/

While you mean well dorian,

Your link to me only permits the reading of the headlines.

The bulk of the story is blanked of faded out.

Buzz may have the information that he was eluding to.

dorian · Guru

Rob Driver wrote:
dorian wrote:
Rob Driver wrote:
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
I read somewhere Ukraine is using mobile phone signals to kill the Russian generals, amongst others, and to monitor troup movements.
Would I be offensive in asking for your source of this information?
Thank you in anticipation..
Wait no longer.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2315553-russia-and-ukraine-are-both-weaponising-mobile-phones-to-track-troops/
While you mean well dorian,
Your link to me only permits the reading of the headlines.
The bulk of the story is blanked of faded out.
Buzz may have the information that he was eluding to.

I can see everything in my current browser (Edge - based on Chrome engine).

Here is Google's cached version:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?strip=1&q=cache:https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newscientist.com%2Farticle%2F2315553-russia-and-ukraine-are-both-weaponising-mobile-phones-to-track-troops%2F (text only)

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?strip=0&q=cache:https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newscientist.com%2Farticle%2F2315553-russia-and-ukraine-are-both-weaponising-mobile-phones-to-track-troops%2F (text and images)

Here is another source:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220316224830/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/16/us/politics/russia-troop-deaths.html

-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 19th of April 2022 01:27:22 PM

oldbloke · Guru

Well, I'm laughing. Shock horror, Ukraine is hitting back,, again.

Sorry off topic I know.

oldbloke · Guru

Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
I read somewhere Ukraine is using mobile phone signals to kill the Russian generals, amongst others, and to monitor troup movements.

I read abt 2 weeks ago 5 or 6 russian generals killed. I heard it was open radio use

I also worry ww3 is very close.

No fly zone will almost guarantee NATO getting involved and a serious escalation. So, I would vote no for that.

I say give Ukrain heaps of heavy artillery, drones and missiles to hit Russian cities. Almost anything they want, including aircraft. Make them pay.

Then one of pootins mates will finnish the war with just 1 bullet.

Mike Harding · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
No fly zone will almost guarantee NATO getting involved and a serious escalation. So, I would vote no for that.
I say give Ukrain heaps of heavy artillery, drones and missiles to hit Russian cities.

And if the Russians strike a Western convey taking those arms to Ukraine... what then?

Edit: typo

-- Edited by Mike Harding on Tuesday 19th of April 2022 05:22:28 PM

Whenarewethere · Guru

oldbloke wrote:
Then one of pootins mates will finnish the war with just 1 bullet.

No no... his underpants.

oldbloke · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
No fly zone will almost guarantee NATO getting involved and a serious escalation. So, I would vote no for that.
I say give Ukrain heaps of heavy artillery, drones and missiles to hit Russian cities.
And if the Russians strike a Western convey taking those arms to Ukraine... what then?
Edit: typo

-- Edited by Mike Harding on Tuesday 19th of April 2022 05:22:28 PM

Ummmm, who knows. IMO it's just less "direct/agressive" that a no fly zone.

But at the start of ww2 there was plenty of armaments shipped over the Atlantic from US to UK and Germany (uboats) sunk a hell of a lot. But USA was not drawn in to ww2 till the Japanese hit pearl harbour.

oldbloke · Guru

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61141118

edition.cnn.com/2022/04/01/europe/russia-ukraine-belgorod-fire-intl/index.html

DMaxer · Guru

No, you dont hit Russian cities. You defend your homeland within your boundaries. Once you strike outside your own country then it is open slather.

Phlipper · Senior Member

DMaxer wrote:
No, you dont hit Russian cities. You defend your homeland within your boundaries. Once you strike outside your own country then it is open slather.

Agree

Mike Harding · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
No, you dont hit Russian cities. You defend your homeland within your boundaries. Once you strike outside your own country then it is open slather.

You mean like Russia has done?

oldbloke · Guru

Phlipper wrote:
DMaxer wrote:
No, you dont hit Russian cities. You defend your homeland within your boundaries. Once you strike outside your own country then it is open slather.
Agree

With that attitude you are doomed to lose the war. Where do you think they make the equipment ammo store and make fuel, provide food for troops? They must hit their cities and military targets or die, it's war. It's already open slather, has been since 24 Feb. Ukraine has no choice. You cannot defeat an enemy defending only.

If you want to stop a bully, best strategy is punch him in the nose.

Ever played chess?