Time to reconsider your energy provider?

yobarr · Guru

RE: Time to reconsider your energy provider?

msg · Guru

Just on the news this week regarding solar salespeople would make it even more important to do your sums before signing a contract. Seems they have a worse reputation than used car salespersons.

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

According to this article:

How the planned 'hydrogen hub' near Whyalla could help Australia's gas crisis

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-11/sa-planned-hydrogen-hub-explained/101138894

a hydrogen hub near Whyalla could not only help with the rise in electricity prices by converting excess solar panels' energy into hydrogen for base load electricity, but also help with generating green steel in the nearby steel plants, create fertiliser and fuel transport.

It's probably not going to be big enough to fix and provide for all those things but it'll be a start.

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

I think that the Federal Government could learn a lesson from WA:

'The gas belongs to us' say former Western Australian premiers despairing at energy crisis over east

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-11/gas-belongs-to-us-say-former-western-australian-premiers/101143558

msg · Guru

www.msn.com/en-au/money/markets/the-gas-belongs-to-us-say-former-western-australian-premiers-despairing-at-energy-crisis-over-east/ar-AAYkBKk

This says it very well.

yobarr · Guru

msg wrote:
Just on the news this week regarding solar salespeople would make it even more important to do your sums before signing a contract. Seems they have a worse reputation than used car salespersons.

That is not correct. Most buyers of cars realise that a Ferrari is likely to outperform a Datsun 1200, and that it is priced accordingly. However, they fail to use that same logic when buying Solar, often purchasing El Cheapo because it is exactly that. El Cheapo. And then when the El Cheapo 6.6kw system fails to produce 40% as much power as a quality 6kw system they start crying that "It ain't fair" and blaming all and sundry when fault is clearly at their doorstep. The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten". When I was selling Solar I often would get calls from people I'd marketed my product to but who had been swayed by incorrect advice from people who know little about Solar, and had subsequently bought El Cheapo. When they realised that they'd been "done" they would then call me, asking for help, but the care factor precluded me providing any assistance. The Government subsidy applies only once per household, so that when they eventually did buy quality the price was $6000 higher. Never did I get calls from disgruntled customers, because they'd bought wisely in the first place, and often would refer their friends to me. GOOD Solar is a risk-free income producing asset with better returns each year as the price of Electricity rises. And income is all tax-free. Cheers

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

I saw a report on TV where some people had paid for the installation of solar systems which were never installed. They may be the sales people that msg was referring to?

Whenarewethere · Guru

A bit like one spending $100k on a new car with electric everything & then looking for the cheapest Chinese roof racks.

Not a lot different to a home & solar setup, but better off with a new kitchen $40k, bathrooms $30k x 2, home theatre $30k minimum, carpet & blinds which are simply necessary.

When you sell the home the new owner will replace the lot because they don't like it.

Doubt they would rip the solar off the roof.

yobarr · Guru

Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
I saw a report on TV where some people had paid for the installation of solar systems which were never installed. They may be the sales people that msg was referring to?

There certainly are a few "suss" companies around, a couple with VERY BIG names, that prey on people such as those you refer to. But these buyers would be dipsticks, wouldn't they? Paying upfront is not ever smart, and if they'd taken out a Solar loan it cannot be accessed until an installation certificate is issued by the energy provider, saying the system has been safely installed and is producing electricity. Caveat Emptor! Cheers

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
I saw a report on TV where some people had paid for the installation of solar systems which were never installed. They may be the sales people that msg was referring to?
There certainly are a few "suss" companies around, a couple with VERY BIG names, that prey on people such as those you refer to. But these buyers would be dipsticks, wouldn't they? Paying upfront is not ever smart, and if they'd taken out a Solar loan it cannot be accessed until an installation certificate is issued by the energy provider, saying the system has been safely installed and is producing electricity. Caveat Emptor! Cheers

Maybe some pay a deposit before the work starts?

I don't know. All I'm doing is providing a possible alternative for msg's post.

yobarr · Guru

Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
I saw a report on TV where some people had paid for the installation of solar systems which were never installed. They may be the sales people that msg was referring to?
There certainly are a few "suss" companies around, a couple with VERY BIG names, that prey on people such as those you refer to. But these buyers would be dipsticks, wouldn't they? Paying upfront is not ever smart, and if they'd taken out a Solar loan it cannot be accessed until an installation certificate is issued by the energy provider, saying the system has been safely installed and is producing electricity. Caveat Emptor! Cheers
Maybe some pay a deposit before the work starts?
I don't know. All I'm doing is providing a possible alternative for msg's post.

No problem. I wasn't challenging you, but simply pointing out that reputable Solar companies do not take any money until the job is done. No risk to the customer that way! Cheers

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
Maybe some pay a deposit before the work starts?
I don't know. All I'm doing is providing a possible alternative for msg's post.
No problem. I wasn't challenging you, but simply pointing out that reputable Solar companies do not take any money until the job is done. No risk to the customer that way! Cheers

Sounds like good business sense to build up a good reputation. It would be nice if every company did that but unfortunately there are scammers, disreputable and greedy people in the world.

-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Saturday 11th of June 2022 04:29:35 PM

dorian · Guru

yobarr wrote:

msg wrote:
Just on the news this week regarding solar salespeople would make it even more important to do your sums before signing a contract. Seems they have a worse reputation than used car salespersons.
That is not correct. Most buyers of cars realise that a Ferrari is likely to outperform a Datsun 1200, and that it is priced accordingly. However, they fail to use that same logic when buying Solar, often purchasing El Cheapo because it is exactly that. El Cheapo. And then when the El Cheapo 6.6kw system fails to produce 40% as much power as a quality 6kw system they start crying that "It ain't fair" and blaming all and sundry when fault is clearly at their doorstep. The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten". When I was selling Solar I often would get calls from people I'd marketed my product to but who had been swayed by incorrect advice from people who know little about Solar, and had subsequently bought El Cheapo. When they realised that they'd been "done" they would then call me, asking for help, but the care factor precluded me providing any assistance. The Government subsidy applies only once per household, so that when they eventually did buy quality the price was $6000 higher. Never did I get calls from disgruntled customers, because they'd bought wisely in the first place, and often would refer their friends to me. GOOD Solar is a risk-free income producing asset with better returns each year as the price of Electricity rises. And income is all tax-free. Cheers

How do you explain the 40% disparity? Even the crappiest panels have at least 16% - 17% efficiency, and the best panels boast little better than 21%.

It seems to me that the only way to explain the difference would be if the cheap panels were half the size, and that would be just plain fraudulent.

yobarr · Guru

dorian wrote:
yobarr wrote:

msg wrote:
Just on the news this week regarding solar salespeople would make it even more important to do your sums before signing a contract. Seems they have a worse reputation than used car salespersons.
That is not correct. Most buyers of cars realise that a Ferrari is likely to outperform a Datsun 1200, and that it is priced accordingly. However, they fail to use that same logic when buying Solar, often purchasing El Cheapo because it is exactly that. El Cheapo. And then when the El Cheapo 6.6kw system fails to produce 40% as much power as a quality 6kw system they start crying that "It ain't fair" and blaming all and sundry when fault is clearly at their doorstep. The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten". When I was selling Solar I often would get calls from people I'd marketed my product to but who had been swayed by incorrect advice from people who know little about Solar, and had subsequently bought El Cheapo. When they realised that they'd been "done" they would then call me, asking for help, but the care factor precluded me providing any assistance. The Government subsidy applies only once per household, so that when they eventually did buy quality the price was $6000 higher. Never did I get calls from disgruntled customers, because they'd bought wisely in the first place, and often would refer their friends to me. GOOD Solar is a risk-free income producing asset with better returns each year as the price of Electricity rises. And income is all tax-free. Cheers
How do you explain the 40% disparity? Even the crappiest panels have at least 16% - 17% efficiency, and the best panels boast little better than 21%.
It seems to me that the only way to explain the difference would be if the cheap panels were half the size, and that would be just plain fraudulent.

There are many factors affecting output from a Solar system. The system I referred to above was installed by an Australian wide Solar company, and I only found it when a young man that I was selling a 6kw Solar system to laughed at me when I told him my price. "My mother just bought a 6kw TOP QUALITY Solar system off XXX Solar for half that price" he said, to which I replied "It's garbage. Let's go and look at it". We drove across Brisbane to his Mum's home where she proudly showed her flash Solar system.At midday on this bright sunny day it had produced 6.8kw of Solar, which is hopelessly low, so we all got into my car and drove a couple of kilometres to one of my installs, also 6kw. Same day, same size system,same aspect. BUT at midday my system had produced 20.4kws. That is 3 TIMES what his mother's El Cheapo had produced so he said straight away "I'll buy yours" and the deal was done right there. His mother had all sorts of trouble with her El Cheapo which I eventually replaced at huge cost to her as she already had received the Govt subsidy. (RECs or STCs). Ended up costing her $27,000 because she initially bought El Cheapo. Buying a GOOD inverter is critical, with Fronius being indesputably the best brand, and SMA Sunny Boy very close behind.Sungrow is good too. There are dozens of other brands available, of variable quality, all the way down to Sunny Roo which is no longer sold, thank goodness! The size and quality of the cabling is also important, along with many other things that I won't bother you with. Solar is one product where you definitely get what you pay for. Hope this helps? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 12th of June 2022 02:23:53 PM

dorian · Guru

yobarr wrote:
There are many factors affecting output from a Solar system. The system I referred to above was installed by an Australian wide Solar company, and I only found it when a young man that I was selling a 6kw Solar system to laughed at me when I told him my price. "My mother just bought a 6kw TOP QUALITY Solar system off XXX Solar for half that price" he said, to which I replied "It's garbage. Let's go and look at it". We drove across Brisbane to his Mum's home where she proudly showed her flash Solar system.At midday on this bright sunny day it had produced 6.8kw of Solar, which is hopelessly low, so we all got into my car and drove a couple of kilometres to one of my installs, also 6kw. Same day, same size system,same aspect. BUT at midday my system had produced 20.4kws. That is 3 TIMES what his mother's El Cheapo had produced so he said straight away "I'll buy yours" and the deal was done right there. His mother had all sorts of trouble with her El Cheapo which I eventually replaced at huge cost to her as she already had received the Govt subsidy. (RECs or STCs). Ended up costing her $27,000 because she initially bought El Cheapo. Buying a GOOD inverter is critical, with Fronius being indesputably the best brand, and SMA Sunny Boy very close.Sungrow is good too. There are dozens of brands of variable quality available, all the way down to Sunny Roo which is no longer sold. The size and quality of the cabling is also important, along with many other things that I won't bother you with. Solar is one product where you definitely get what you pay for. Hope this helps? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 12th of June 2022 12:19:05 PM

If I understand you correctly, a cheap solar system that was sold as a 6kW installation actually produced 6.8kW, yet your 6kW system, costing twice as much, actually produced 20kW. Would it have occupied exactly the same space as the competitor's panels?

Do you have any dimensional specs and electrical ratings for your panels? Number of panels? Type of solar cells? Model/rating/brand of inverter?

PeterInSa · Guru

I do not have a 6.6Kw system advertised on Adelaide TV for around $3750, ours a lot lower kw( 1.25lw) was installed 19 years ago at more than double the price.

However If I was getting 6.8Kw out of the 6.6Kw system mid day I would be very happy, but for how long, hope their warranty and the company is still going in 10 years time to determine whether its a good buy.

yobarr · Guru

dorian wrote:
yobarr wrote:
There are many factors affecting output from a Solar system. The system I referred to above was installed by an Australian wide Solar company, and I only found it when a young man that I was selling a 6kw Solar system to laughed at me when I told him my price. "My mother just bought a 6kw TOP QUALITY Solar system off XXX Solar for half that price" he said, to which I replied "It's garbage. Let's go and look at it". We drove across Brisbane to his Mum's home where she proudly showed her flash Solar system.At midday on this bright sunny day it had produced 6.8kWh of Solar, which is hopelessly low, so we all got into my car and drove a couple of kilometres to one of my installs, also 6kw. Same day, same size system,same aspect. BUT at midday my system had produced 20.4kWh. That is 3 TIMES what his mother's El Cheapo had produced so he said straight away "I'll buy yours" and the deal was done right there. His mother had all sorts of trouble with her El Cheapo which I eventually replaced at huge cost to her as she already had received the Govt subsidy. (RECs or STCs). Ended up costing her $27,000 because she initially bought El Cheapo. Buying a GOOD inverter is critical, with Fronius being indesputably the best brand, and SMA Sunny Boy very close.Sungrow is good too. There are dozens of brands of variable quality available, all the way down to Sunny Roo which is no longer sold. The size and quality of the cabling is also important, along with many other things that I won't bother you with. Solar is one product where you definitely get what you pay for. Hope this helps? Cheers
If I understand you correctly, a cheap solar system that was sold as a 6kW installation actually produced 6.8kW, yet your 6kW system, costing twice as much, actually produced 20kW. Would it have occupied exactly the same space as the competitor's panels?
Do you have any dimensional specs and electrical ratings for your panels? Number of panels? Type of solar cells? Model/rating/brand of inverter?

Dorian, you clearly are out of your depth here. It is pointless for me to waste my time discussing the relative merits of the various types of panels, other than to say that the vast majority of solar systems use monocrystalline panels, but I prefer Polycrystalline, which is why I have 6x275 watt Polys on my van.When I was selling Solar a 6kw system generally was made up of 24x250 watt panels, but many other combinations are possible, such as 22x275 watt panels, or 20x300 watts for example. There are many thousands of Solar systems made up of 8x190 watt Monos, but they are next to useless. People rattle on about getting 55 cents FIT but export next to nothing, so the FIT is irrelevant. Trying to help these people is invariably met with strong resistance. Problem was that nobody knew how to properly market Solar, and were selling cheap rubbish just to get a sale. Could go on for days relating experiences, but not now. Secret with Solar is to get panels facing different directions which is why I used to install panels facing East, North and West if possible, on same house . Few understand that either! If I felt that you really were interested I would go on, but history shows me that you simply love to argue the point.Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 12th of June 2022 04:28:10 PM

yobarr · Guru

PeterInSa wrote:
I do not have a 6.6Kw system advertised on Adelaide TV for around $3750, ours a lot lower kw( 1.25lw) was installed 19 years ago at more than double the price.

However If I was getting 6.8Kw out of the 6.6Kw system mid day I would be very happy, but for how long, hope their warranty and the company is still going in 10 years time to determine whether its a good buy.

Hi Peter. Like Dorian, you seem to have misunderstood my original post. The 6.8kWh and 20.4kWh figures were the respective system's TOTAL production to midday on that particular day, not current production. Twice I had written that that was production to midday but you both may have missed that? Cheers

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 12th of June 2022 04:25:12 PM

dorian · Guru

yobarr wrote:
PeterInSa wrote:
I do not have a 6.6Kw system advertised on Adelaide TV for around $3750, ours a lot lower kw( 1.25lw) was installed 19 years ago at more than double the price.

However If I was getting 6.8Kw out of the 6.6Kw system mid day I would be very happy, but for how long, hope their warranty and the company is still going in 10 years time to determine whether its a good buy.
Hi Peter. Like Dorian, you seem to have misunderstood my original post. The 6.8kw and 20.4kw figures were the respective system's TOTAL production to midday on that particular day, not current production. Twice I had written that that was production to midday but you both may have missed that? Cheers

Neither of us misunderstood what you wrote, except you. A kilowatt (kW) is a unit of power. It represents the instantaneous output of the panel at the current time. If you want to compare the solar harvest, then you need to calculate kilowatt-hours (kWh). Maybe you missed that?

How long did you say you were selling solar systems?

PeterInSa · Guru

I paid more for Poly panels on our Caravan, Sprinter Campervan and House, in part because I was told at the initial purchase ( House I think) that the Poly panels were less impacted by tress and clouds getting in the way of sunlight than Mono Panels.

In hindsight, I don't noticed the difference, and for years regretted not getting mono's like friends, and reading below neither does this author, see any real differences ( yobarr, it could be a bit like the Holden vs Ford discussions, for the same quality of panels ie Not Holden versus Mercedes)

www.solarquotes.com.au/panels/photovoltaic/monocrystalline-vs-polycrystalline/

Bobdown · Guru

Poly panels not all they are cracked up to be Yobarr, you need more of them as they less efficient............apparently.

Cheers Bob

Factor	Monocrystalline Solar Panels	Polycrystalline Solar Panels
Silicone Arrangement	One pure silicon crystal	Many silicon fragments melded together
Cost	More expensive	Less expensive
Appearance	Panels have black hue	Panels have blue hue
Efficiency	More efficient	Less efficient
Lifespan	25-40 years	20-35 years
Temperature Coefficient	Lower temperature coefficient, making them more efficient in heat	Higher temperature coefficient, making them less efficient in heat

Solar Panel Cost

The silicon structure of each solar panel is the main factor that determines cost. To produce polycrystalline panels, manufacturers must simply pour molten silicon into square molds, then cut the resulting wafers into individual cells. On the other hand, to produce single-crystal solar cells, the solidification of silicon must be controlled very carefully. Because of this more complex manufacturing process, mono panels are more expensive. Here are a couple of things to keep in mind about the cost of solar panels:

Monocrystalline solar panels have a higher cost when comparing only the panels.
The cost of inverters, wiring, electrical protections, racking and labor is the same for both solar panel types.
Because monocrystalline panels are more efficient, you may get a better return on your investment.
Homeowners are eligible for the federal solar tax credit whether they choose mono or poly panels.

Efficiency and Temperature Coefficient

As mentioned above, monocrystalline solar panels have a higher efficiency. However, this does not mean that polycrystalline solar panels are inferior products you can find high-quality solar panels of both types. Here are a few more facts about efficiency:

When a solar panel has a higher efficiency, it converts a larger percentage of sunlight into electricity.
As of 2021, polycrystalline panels have typical efficiencies below 20%, while the best monocrystalline panels are approaching 23%.
You will need more polycrystalline panels to reach a certain kilowatt-hour output per month, since their efficiency is lower.
All solar panels suffer a temporary efficiency drop when their temperature increases, but monocrystalline solar cells are less affected by heat.

Whenarewethere · Guru

I bought 6 x 20 watt poly panels. It was the only size panel that would fit in the space required for transport.

Under ideal conditions square to the sun they typically produce 125 - 127 watts according to two Victron controllers & with water cooling up to 137 watts.

Buzz Lightbulb · Guru

I mentioned earlier that some multinational companies don't pay any tax. Here's an article that supports that:

How your spiking energy bills are making foreign investors rich

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-13/ian-verrender-column-on-electricity-bills/101146926

I think that if an Australian didn't pay tax the ATO could step in and cease his or her arrests to compensate for the unpaid tax. Shouldn't the Australian government step in and do that to these companies? That way, Australians would benefit from the gas exports rather than foreign companies and then we'd have enough gas for the local supplies to bring down the cost of energy.

PeterInSa · Guru

re (Shouldn't the Australian government step in and do that to these companies?) It could be a costly exercise, possibly without any benefits.

My Take on the subject:
In the good old days when Oz was manufacturing, a multi national with a subsidiary in Oz making widgets under licence, the Oz firm would need to pay the overseas parent for the use of its licence to make the widget, pay for OS technical/administration support, pay for use of their computer system, pay for.... all these costs reduce the profit of the Oz company so much so that they don't pay tax. Probably a similar story with cost offsets with the multinational energy companies.

The ATO would need to pay experts/consultants in all aspects of the company business that's being investigated to confirm that the costs that reduce the profit are justified.

Ivan 01 · Guru

Very well explained PeterInSa

Buzz, do you pay tax?
Do you claim tax deductions?
Do you only pay the minimum amount of tax?

Why would you or the ABC expect corporate business to pay for your electricity?

Take two minutes of your valuable time to watch this.

https://youtu.be/DBg7DnQjjcY

gold dandelion · Senior Member

Looking forward to the next Chapter.

Gundog · Guru

Ivan 01 wrote:
Very well explained PeterInSa

Buzz, do you pay tax?
Do you claim tax deductions?
Do you only pay the minimum amount of tax?

Why would you or the ABC expect corporate business to pay for your electricity?

Take two minutes of your valuable time to watch this.
https://youtu.be/DBg7DnQjjcY

People like Buzz just beleive the ABC and hold them up as a credible news source, but as per usual most journalists use the common addage "dont let the facts get in the way of a good story", it's more about commont and opinion than facts.

Thumbs up Ivan good point Kerry