Some sports people just need a belting with the strap

dorian · Guru

Some sports people just need a belting with the strap

DMaxer · Guru

I don't think it is a matter of coming onto this forum and tub thumping every issue Mike. I don't recall anything on this forum about the Manly issues in any event.

What I do find selective is the causes that are placed in the "That was years ago, move on" category and ones that are remembered continually. I have spent probably about twelve years in total in the UK during my life and I could just imagine the reaction if you visited placed such as Coventry, Sheffield or Liverpool to name a few, and advised them to move on from the German bombing. Go to Ulster and tell them to move on from the "Troubles", tell them that is in the past and see what happens. Closer to home, go down to your local RSL and when the Ode is completed inform the patrons that the war finished almost 80 years ago and they should "just move on" or "leave if you cannot accept it". See what happens.

It is all very well for wealthy sports people to lecture this team. Most would probably sell their souls for the almighty quid.

That player had a right to refuse to wear a uniform with the logo of a company founded by a person with vile racist views. They will get a sponsor who will be lauded as a saviour and have exposure they never anticipated.

Gundog · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
. Closer to home, go down to your local RSL and when the Ode is completed inform the patrons that the war finished almost 80 years ago and they should "just move on" or "leave if you cannot accept it".

DMaxer

I find this comment deeply offensive, we remember those that paid the ultimate sacrifice by giving their lives for the freedoms we enjoy.

You have trivialised the Ode of Remberance by comparing it to sporting sponsorships.

Lest We Forget

DMaxer · Guru

No I have not trivialised anything Gundog. The point is that everything that happened in the past is relevant. It does not have a time stamp as to when its relevance ceases. Different events and happenings have different impacts on different individuals.

What was said about that girl's heritage is not diminished because it was said years ago. The same as wars, tragedies and uprisings. They are timeless and not to be dismissed by someone because they don't think it is as important as their own particular remembrance.

I won't cop lectures from you on what the war means as my father, mother and three uncles were all involved. My father died later in life as a result of his injuries so go and lecture someone else.

Mike Harding · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
What was said about that girl's heritage is not diminished because it was said years ago. The same as wars, tragedies and uprisings. They are timeless and not to be dismissed by someone because they don't think it is as important as their own particular remembrance.

As I said in the other thread: For how long do you wish to go on hating?

People have always understood that the past must be let go of, sometimes we find this difficult and painful but let go of it we must else it is ourselves who is damaged by carrying such anger and bitterness.

We even have a saying in English "Let bygones be bygones" and each 31st December we sing Auld Lang Syne as a symbol of moving from the past to the future. In our close personal relationships we often suffer from terrible emotional pain inflicted by one upon another; a partner may be unfaithful perhaps, but in the main we forgive and move on because we know we should not carry such poison in our hearts for too long. The entire basis of the Christian religion which is the basis of our society is built upon the concept of forgiveness. Even our legal system has that at its centre; a person is convicted and sentenced then serves his punishment and his crime is paid for and may not be raised in any future trial. Without forgiveness and the ability to let go of hurts we would be in an almost constant state of conflict with the people around us and society could not function and I should be seeking vengeance upon the Vikings/Normans/Spaniards/French/Germans... that is no way to live a life.

Are We Lost · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
........ I have spent probably about twelve years in total in the UK during my life and I could just imagine the reaction if you visited placed such as Coventry, Sheffield or Liverpool to name a few, and advised them to move on from the German bombing. Go to Ulster and tell them to move on from the "Troubles", tell them that is in the past and see what happens.

No, but the poms as a general rule do not show open hostility to the descendants of the German regime for their sins. Do you personally hold a grudge against those descendants?

Closer to home, go down to your local RSL and when the Ode is completed inform the patrons that the war finished almost 80 years ago and they should "just move on" or "leave if you cannot accept it". See what happens.
As Mike says, we choose to remember the sacrifice of those who fought in the war and saved us. I doubt you would go to any RSL and hear them criticising the current generation for what happened then. Same question .... do you hold a grudge against those descendants?
That player had a right to refuse to wear a uniform with the logo of a company founded by a person with vile racist views. They will get a sponsor who will be lauded as a saviour and have exposure they never anticipated.
And the benefactor has a right to say "I don't want my money to go to someone who just wants the money, and is using it for a political statement. I would rather support others who will be more appreciative and not criticise the hand that feeds them."

dorian · Guru

Gundog wrote:
DMaxer wrote:
. Closer to home, go down to your local RSL and when the Ode is completed inform the patrons that the war finished almost 80 years ago and they should "just move on" or "leave if you cannot accept it".
DMaxer
I find this comment deeply offensive, we remember those that paid the ultimate sacrifice by giving their lives for the freedoms we enjoy.
You have trivialised the Ode of Remberance by comparing it to sporting sponsorships.
Lest We Forget

Gundog, yours is just a disingenuous attempt to create a straw man. "Confected outrage", I think it's called.

The only sacrifice that has been trivialised is that made by the Diamonds in support of their indigenous colleague.

-- Edited by dorian on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 12:33:21 PM

Mike Harding · Guru

dorian wrote:
The only sacrifice that has been trivialised is that made by the Diamonds in support of their indigenous colleague.

It's seems their "sacrifice" was not a too deeply held principle as they did all agree to wear the logo... after they had had their little tantrum and realised there may be consequences - I guess we all have to grow up, one day:

Fox Sports

dorian · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
dorian wrote:
The only sacrifice that has been trivialised is that made by the Diamonds in support of their indigenous colleague.
It's seems their "sacrifice" was not a too deeply held principle as they did all agree to wear the logo... after they had had their little tantrum and realised there may be consequences - I guess we all have to grow up, one day:
Fox Sports

They couldn't cope with a barrage of "toxic commentary". I think that says more about others than it does about them.

Mike Harding · Guru

dorian wrote:
They couldn't cope with a barrage of "toxic commentary". I think that says more about others than it does about them.

Dorian: if you are going to strut around shouting "These are my principals" then you damn well need to have the fortitude to stand up for them otherwise you're just another whiner.

Cuppa · Guru

landy wrote:
Hi Gina. Your father was a racist and I don't want to be associated with your company by wearing your logo.
But can I please still have your $15,000,000 .

Is that what really happened?

I thought it was "Hi Gina. Your father was a racist and I don't want to be associated with your company by wearing your logo".

-- Edited by Cuppa on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 01:03:49 PM

Cuppa · Guru

DMaxer wrote:
No I have not trivialised anything Gundog. The point is that everything that happened in the past is relevant. It does not have a time stamp as to when its relevance ceases. Different events and happenings have different impacts on different individuals.
What was said about that girl's heritage is not diminished because it was said years ago. The same as wars, tragedies and uprisings. They are timeless and not to be dismissed by someone because they don't think it is as important as their own particular remembrance.

Regardless of the replies you have received, which in my view are blind to the double standards they espouse, I think you are absolutely correct.

dorian · Guru

Mike Harding wrote:
dorian wrote:
They couldn't cope with a barrage of "toxic commentary". I think that says more about others than it does about them.
Dorian: if you are going to strut around shouting "These are my principals" then you damn well need to have the fortitude to stand up for them otherwise you're just another whiner.

I don't understand. I was quoting a Fox article:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/netball/defiant-diamonds-block-out-outside-noise-toxic-commentary-in-uniform-sponsor-saga/news-story/369b0021eff2b9d8dbf1ae1b85726b98

The pressure from "toxic" commentators must have been unrelenting.

As I see it, this sad and sorry affair had the potential to be a win-win situation for both parties. Every reasonable person, including the Diamonds, accepts that a child cannot be held responsible for the sins of its parents. Therefore, if Rhinehart had simply distanced herself from her father's statements and genuinely, unreservedly apologised on his behalf, then there may have been a real chance that Donnell Wallam would have been proud to wear the Han**** logo -- Gina Han****'s logo, that is.

-- Edited by dorian on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 01:31:23 PM

Plain Truth · Guru

Why did she sign up for a team ,if the company sponsors logo was going to upset her.

Bit like buying a property near an airfield,then complaining about the noisy planes.

Gundog · Guru

You only need to look at my avatar understanding of disappointment of using the Ode analogy comparing selfish individuals woke rubbish.

My disappointment stems from My family has 3 generations who have served in the military, 2 of my sons are the 3rd generation my wife and I both served and my parents both served in WW2, my father eventually passed from his war wounds in the 60's when I was a teenager. If successful my grandson will become the 4th generation to serve, he is hopeful that he will be accepted into RMC Duntroon.

So the Ode to me is very personal

-- Edited by Gundog on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 02:33:29 PM

Cuppa · Guru

dorian wrote:
if Rhinehart had simply distanced herself from her father's statements and genuinely, unreservedly apologised on his behalf, then there may have been a real chance that Donnell Wallam would have been proud to wear the Han**** logo -- Gina Han****'s logo, that is.

-- Edited by dorian on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 01:31:23 PM

Yep. that's it in a nutshell, & the only reason for all toxic commentary which has followed is because an aboriginal woman had the audacity to stand by her principals, giving all the haters another excuse to regurgitate their hatred in yet another form.

Plain Truth · Guru

Cuppa wrote:
dorian wrote:
if Rhinehart had simply distanced herself from her father's statements and genuinely, unreservedly apologised on his behalf, then there may have been a real chance that Donnell Wallam would have been proud to wear the Han**** logo -- Gina Han****'s logo, that is.

-- Edited by dorian on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 01:31:23 PM
Yep. that's it in a nutshell, & the only reason for all toxic commentary which has followed is because an aboriginal woman had the audacity to stand by her principals, giving all the haters another excuse to regurgitate their hatred in yet another form.

Why did she join a team,if the logo upset her,Her principals should have stopped from joining in the first place.

A good example is Muhammid Ali.

Cuppa · Guru

Gundog wrote:
You only need to look at my avatar understanding of disappointment of using the Ode analogy comparing selfish individuals woke rubbish.
My disappointment stems from My family has 3 generations who have served in the military, 2 of my sons are the 3rd generation my wife and I both served and my parents both served in WW2, my father eventually passed from his war wounds in the 60's when I was a teenager. If successful my grandson will become the 4th generation to serve, he is hopeful that he will be accepted into RMC Duntroon.
So the Ode to me is very personal

-- Edited by Gundog on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 02:33:29 PM

And one of the most powerful men in Australia, less than 40 years ago publicly advocating the wholesale killing of families after all the killings which had gone before wouldn't be personal to their descendants? No-one suggests you shouldn't feel as you do, so why would you not afford the same understanding you receive, & expect to receive, to others? I wouldn't mind betting that your family losses, personally powerful as they no doubt are, would pale into insignificance to what all aboriginal families lost. If you are going to take offence at what has been said here, (with no offence intended as far as I can see), but expect aboriginal people to not to take offence at what they have been subjected to then I suggest that that would be displaying immense double standards.

As to the repetitive the frequent reference to 'woke' (yawn)..... the opposite of that I presume is 'still asleep' - a condition during which those affected have no recognition of what is going on around them at the time.

Cuppa · Guru

Plain Truth wrote:
Why did she join a team,if the logo upset her,Her principals should have stopped from joining in the first place.
A good example is Muhammid Ali.

Why?

Because times are changing & folk who have previously felt unable to stand up & say how how they feel are now feeling the support which is in the air to do exactly that, knowing that the haters will still hate, but understanding that the balance between haters & 'understanders in Australian society is changing.

You may wish to check on the history. Cassius Clay changed his m=name to Mohammed Ali as a result of his association & support with those fighting for justice or black folk who still struggle with the intergenerational impact of slavery, apartheid & disadvantage. He, like the netballer stood proud.

Plain Truth · Guru

Cuppa wrote:
Plain Truth wrote:
Why did she join a team,if the logo upset her,Her principals should have stopped from joining in the first place.
A good example is Muhammid Ali.
Why?
Because times are changing & folk who have previously felt unable to stand up & say how how they feel are now feeling the support which is in the air to do exactly that, knowing that the haters will still hate, but understanding that the balance between haters & 'understanders in Australian society is changing.
You may wish to check on the history. Cassius Clay changed his m=name to Mohammed Ali as a result of his association & support with those fighting for justice or black folk who still struggle with the intergenerational impact of slavery, apartheid & disadvantage. He, like the netballer stood proud.
I know all about Cassius I am a lot older than you ,he stood proud and he stood down,he wasn't used, he had principals.Not like this woke lot they are being used.

Plain Truth · Guru

Just off topic watch the Cassius verses Cooper fight in 1963 ,before he beat Sonny for the title,I think it was first time Clay got knocked down.

dorian · Guru

Plain Truth wrote:
Why did she join a team,if the logo upset her,Her principals should have stopped from joining in the first place.

I thought she was already a team member before Han**** Prospecting became a sponsor. For example, I don't see Han**** Prospecting listed as a "partner" in May of this year.

https://web.archive.org/web/20221013182818/https://diamonds.netball.com.au/about/partners - partners on Oct 13, 2022 - includes Han****

https://web.archive.org/web/20220517142322/https://diamonds.netball.com.au/about/partners - partners on May 17, 2022 - does not include Han****

Here are some questions answered by Han****, but most were not:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-25/seven-questions-that-precede-hanc%6Fck-netball-decision/101574460

"Question 7: Given Han**** Prospecting and Gina Rinehart's sponsorship of sport and athletes, and the funding of numerous indigenous education, media and work programs, why doesn't she just declare she does not share the same values as her father who founded the Han**** company and suggested Indigenous people be bred out?"

"Nothing in the statement appears to directly address this question."

-- Edited by dorian on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 04:01:02 PM

Plain Truth · Guru

dorian wrote:
Plain Truth wrote:
Why did she join a team,if the logo upset her,Her principals should have stopped from joining in the first place.
I thought she was already a team member before Han**** Prospecting became a sponsor. I don't see Han**** Prospecting listed as a "partner" in May of this year.
https://web.archive.org/web/20221013182818/https://diamonds.netball.com.au/about/partners - partners on Oct 13, 2022 - includes Han****
https://web.archive.org/web/20220517142322/https://diamonds.netball.com.au/about/partners - partners on May 17, 2022 - does not include Han****

Hi Dorian,if she was a team member before Gina took over sponsorship,I can understand her feelings.

So what is the answer,maybe let her play without the logo? Everyone wins.

-- Edited by Plain Truth on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 04:05:39 PM

Mike Harding · Guru

Plain Truth wrote:
Just off topic watch the Cassius verses Cooper fight in 1963 ,before he beat Sonny for the title,I think it was first time Clay got knocked down.

Saw it live, watching, as a young boy, with my dad on B&W TV and remember it clearly to this day.

Cassius was literally saved by the bell when Henry put him down in round 4 but Henry's soft eyes let him down - a damn good fight and both men can take credit.

dorian · Guru

Did anyone else have the impression that Han**** provided the majority of the sponsorship for the Diamonds, and that the team would be destitute without it? Their web site seems to suggest a different story.

http://diamonds.netball.com.au/about/partners

Mike Harding · Guru

The articles I've read suggest there is (and has been for some time) a big divide between the management of Netball Australia and the players and I think this was a significant part of the reason the sponsorship was withdrawn.

Cuppa · Guru

Plain Truth wrote:

I know all about Cassius I am a lot older than you ,he stood proud and he stood down,he wasn't used, he had principals.Not like this woke lot they are being used.

What do you know which suggests Donell Wallan wasn't standing on her principles? Your assertion that she was being 'used' is one way of undermining her, essentially denying her the possibility of being a person of integrity or of intellect, but to do so requires more than just saying so, if it is to hold any water.

You may have a couple of decades on me but to presume those 'extra' decades of existence give you more knowledge than I of Muhammed Ali without knowing me is similar .... more denial, this time of my knowledge & understanding, .

Ali fought under the name of Muhammed Ali for a long time before standing down, during which time his association with Malcolm X was criticised by racists & he was accused of 'being used' by some, (sound familiar?) but it sounds like we both agree that he was actually a man of principle & integrity, despite many who didn't like what he stood for. He became ' the most visible symbol of Black Power's critique of American imperialism, structural racism and white supremacy'. You may have forgotten the criticism when he stood on his principles when his Black Power beliefs informed his decision to refuse the draft. He outraged many in the US by declaring that "the Vietnamese people never called me a n****r" and he was instrumental in bringing about a whole movement challenging the subjugation of blacks & of war. He was a great man. I have zero doubt that if he were an Australian today he would have spoken loudly in support of Donell Wallan.

-- Edited by Cuppa on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 04:46:42 PM

yobarr · Guru

Interesting thread, with valuable contributions from a couple of clearly erudite individuals, but I am somewhat confused about several references to "principals". Unless, of course, these posters meant "principles"? Easy to talk properly English. Cheers

Plain Truth · Guru

Cuppa wrote:
Plain Truth wrote:

I know all about Cassius I am a lot older than you ,he stood proud and he stood down,he wasn't used, he had principals.Not like this woke lot they are being used.

What do you know which suggests Donell Wallan wasn't standing on her principles? Your assertion that she was being 'used' is one way of undermining her, essentially denying her the possibility of being a person of integrity or of intellect, but to do so requires more than just saying so, if it is to hold any water.
You may have a couple of decades on me but to presume those 'extra' decades of existence give you more knowledge than I of Muhammed Ali without knowing me is similar .... more denial, this time of my knowledge & understanding, .
Ali fought under the name of Muhammed Ali for a long time before standing down, during which time his association with Malcolm X was criticised by racists & he was accused of 'being used' by some, (sound familiar?) but it sounds like we both agree that he was actually a man of principle & integrity, despite many who didn't like what he stood for. He became ' the most visible symbol of Black Power's critique of American imperialism, structural racism and white supremacy'. You may have forgotten the criticism when he stood on his principles when his Black Power beliefs informed his decision to refuse the draft. He outraged many in the US by declaring that "the Vietnamese people never called me a n****r" and he was instrumental in bringing about a whole movement challenging the subjugation of blacks & of war. He was a great man. I have zero doubt that if he were an Australian today he would have spoken loudly in support of Donell Wallan.

-- Edited by Cuppa on Wednesday 26th of October 2022 04:29:26 PM

Cuppa,did you read my reply to Dorians post,I don't think so.

I think you are trying to be a smart Therapist I said nothing about Black Power.

You are just carrying on some Agenda.

Plain Truth · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Interesting thread, with valuable contributions from a couple of clearly erudite individuals, but I am somewhat confused about several references to "principals". Unless, of course, these posters meant "principles"? Easy to talk properly English. Cheers

Sorry yobarr, must remember 1. Proper English.2 Weights & Measures.3 Weights & Measures.4 Weights & Measures.

5 TBO 6 TBO.7 Land Cruiser 79 etc .ect