Had we not had a defence force we would be talking Japanese- a good possibility. Had USA not had a defence force then that would be a certainty.
Yet, often (not always) when a suggestion to join the defence comes with "I dont agree with war" or "it's Govt run and I dont trust the Govt" or "I'll leave those jobs to someone else"
So gone is the feeling of honour following our soldiers and defending our country or search and rescue (eg Tsunami) or helping the community (fires, floods).
Missile ECBM's and submarines carrying them are capable of hitting our shores. With a divided world of "east and west" there is possibility we will be targeted sometime in the next 25 years if things continue the way they are.
I wonder if defending your country is promoted in theory in the modern classroom ? I doubt it.
SOLDIER BLUE
White soldier in every town
Wears a slouch hat to hide the frown
Statue a reminder of where hed been
Greatest carnage the world had seen
In a trench with a mate
About to charge then hesitate
Bullets fly above their heads
Living then but as good as dead
Share a fag make a joke
Fellow digger-bloody good bloke
Bullets zing all around
So much mud there be no ground
Immortal statue at every town
Tribute to those diggers fallen down
Could have been me- maybe you
Lest we forget soldier blue
Hat on reverse teenage joy
Same age then- only a boy
Jumpers word USA
Ignores statue with plenty to say
If concrete face could erase the frown
Of white statue in every town
Hed halt the boys without Aussie pride
Teach them not to copy Yankee stride
All my mates fought for this great land
Do you boy ever understand?
I stand here in concrete uniform
To remind you lad- of before you were born
I love you young man for you are me
But I didnt make it to twenty three
Be proud to be Aussie no regret
Please young aussie- lest you forget
Tony (Eaglemax)
Tony
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Be nice... if I wanted my school teacher here I would have invited him...
Yet, often (not always) when a suggestion to join the defence comes with "I dont agree with war" or "it's Govt run and I dont trust the Govt" or "I'll leave those jobs to someone else"
25 years in uniform and another 15 years woking in Defence and I never heard anyone utter such phrases. I guess I also had the advantage of working alongside a fellow WOFF who had just come from several years in RAAF recruiting. No shortage of applicants but few positions available and most of the available jobs require certain appitude levels. Remember the Top Gun movie? Immediately after that movie came out, thousands of wannabes beat a path to the door of Triservice Recruiting, all wanting to be pilots. About one in 3000 was suitable and the RAAF only takes a few each year. Unsuitable applicants were and are offered altenative 'jobs' but invariably declined. Aircraft maintenance trades, for example, only take a few each year and those trades are subject to barriers like suitability of the applicant and the availability of positions. Because my offsider worked in a Triservice Recruiting office, he could tell me the same sorts of stories for Army and Navy recruiting. The number of people in uniform in Aust continues to reduce and the demand continues to be greater than positions available. The reduction in uniformed personal has not reduced the number of people working in Defence as many jobs have been contracted out. So, as said elsewhere, not many people can join the defence force because defence cannot hire more than the positions available allow and applicants have to fit certain appitude requirements.
-- Edited by Izabarack on Sunday 8th of October 2023 08:47:28 PM
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Iza
Semi-permanent state of being Recreationally Outraged as a defence against boredom during lockdown.
Re: " 25 years in uniform and another 15 years woking in Defence and I never heard anyone utter such phrases" just because you haven't heard these phrases doesn't mean they haven't been said. They are common rebuttals among young adults on Facebook mainly.
My Airforce career goes back to pre cyclone Tracy. I've been around the block too.
Tony
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Be nice... if I wanted my school teacher here I would have invited him...
I think it has a lot to do, with people knowing they wont be able to handle the discipline., this is usually what people say to me when I recommend they join the army, when they complain to me that they haven't got a job, can't get a job, or don't get a look in for a job. I think generally today, most young people are too weak to join the defence forces, and I would prefer, people that have the guts upfront to do the job, most Aussies, just don't have that at all.
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Sunday 8th of October 2023 11:51:40 PM
They are common rebuttals among young adults on Facebook mainly.
I don't dispute such comments may be made. My post does little more than explain that suggesting every young person should join the Defence force ignores the fact that they cannot becaue of the limits on positions available in uniform.
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Iza
Semi-permanent state of being Recreationally Outraged as a defence against boredom during lockdown.
Perhaps everyone should be required to do a year of military training, as is the case in countries like S. Korea, Singapore and Israel. We should probably include women as well. The political climate is only going to get hotter.
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"No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full."
Perhaps everyone should be required to do a year of military training, as is the case in countries like S. Korea, Singapore and Israel. We should probably include women as well. The political climate is only going to get hotter.
Perhaps everyone should be required to do a year of military training, as is the case in countries like S. Korea, Singapore and Israel. We should probably include women as well. The political climate is only going to get hotter.
The time you spend in the military is time that you don't contribute to the economy (as you would in your professional civilian life). That's a loss that would need to be balanced against the nation's defence requirements. That said, the despots are now rattling their sabres, so everyone's priorities have changed.
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"No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full."
The time you spend in the military is time that you don't contribute to the economy (as you would in your professional civilian life). That's a loss that would need to be balanced against the nation's defence requirements. That said, the despots are now rattling their sabres, so everyone's priorities have changed.
the economy would soon adjust and at the end of a year or 2 maybe they may contribute more than if they didn't spend time doing service
I guess one other consideration is whether someone like Alan Turing should be learning how to survive and engage in trench warfare, or should he spend his time learning how to crack codes?
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"No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full."
The time you spend in the military is time that you don't contribute to the economy (as you would in your professional civilian life). That's a loss that would need to be balanced against the nation's defence requirements. That said, the despots are now rattling their sabres, so everyone's priorities have changed.
ummm, do you think we should pay them? Recruits that is? They would ahve the choice of a career path at the end of their national service. While in NS they would get free food, board and accommodation and medical, dental etc. Even clothing... Sound harsh? well ok, free mobile phone that can also be used for service and privacy. Now watch the queue form...
Tony
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Be nice... if I wanted my school teacher here I would have invited him...
I joined the military 18 days after my 17th birthday in 1967, my eldest brother was not called up for nachos yet my cousin was.
How do you contend with selection for national service, the skilled jobs in the tri services require extensive training and educational levels, but for a lots of rolls within the ADF there is little more than a year 9 education required, but aptitude, medicall and psychological testing weeds out the unsuitable.
In a modern military just 12 weeks of recruit training, just changes you from a mummy's boy into a confident disciplined serviceman, but to make you an effective serviceman you need to complete some service/corps training be that 6 weeks or longer before you begin to become that useful part of the service. It was for those reasons why during the 1960's nachos went to the army, to fill the combat arms needs.
In 1967 general enlistment you could choose to join the Army for 3 or 6 years, the RAAF 6 or 12, the RAN was 9 or 12.1 or 2 years national service is not long enough to be worth while.
I discussed previously that a potential effective way to increase our military, is to offer immigration priority to people with suitable aptitude and desire to join our military for maybe 4 years and be given full Australian citizenship after 2 years with the rights to family reunion settlement, I would also seek British help in raising a Gurkha Regiment here.
Just a postscript, many young people who join often become homesick during recuit training, the apron strings are hardto sever.
I was called up for the nachos but failed the medical on a very small technical issue with my nose on how I would be able to breath properly in the jungle situation, yet 2 of my mates from same town, walked their way in
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Age does not weary us, makes us go travelling more
We lost a local bloke last week, he was one of the few remaining Long Tan vets. A very well respected and decent fellow. He was one of those finally recognised a year or so ago. My late father was in several theatres of war, Milne Bay, Tarakan etc.
What does frustrate me is that memories are so short, without men and women of calibre in our defence forces that have contributed in any way, they seem to be forgotten by some. Many of the arguments put forward with present issues, I will not mention current voting procedures, SO MANY people seem to forget what a great country we live in, that had it become over-run with invaders 70 or so years ago, we would not be here. Yet many of these spoiled brats on TV rabbiting away how tough they have it fail to recognise without some of our forefathers we would not be here. Many of those whinging about their lot at present would not be here as their forebears would have been quickly despatched at the end of an invaders bayonet. I am not an invader but I am branded as one even though I paid taxes for 50 years to sustain many who consider myself and my forebears as invaders, at the same time not recognising my family's defence of this once great nation. So, maybe we were invaders, but not as wholly barbaric as many in the news now. We built a nation, we did not tear one down.
We are too soft on all who whinge, and that includes current protesters that favour unlawful genocide.
I guess the world has never really been a nice place and looks to be entering a period of doom and gloom again. I suppose with so many selfish ignoramus in our midst we just have to sit back and cop it sometimes.
Eaglemax, I agree wholeheartedly with your statement : "Had we not had a defence force we would be talking Japanese- a good possibility. Had USA not had a defence force then that would be a certainty. "
We lost a local bloke last week, he was one of the few remaining Long Tan vets. A very well respected and decent fellow. He was one of those finally recognised a year or so ago. My late father was in several theatres of war, Milne Bay, Tarakan etc. What does frustrate me is that memories are so short, without men and women of calibre in our defence forces that have contributed in any way, they seem to be forgotten by some. Many of the arguments put forward with present issues, I will not mention current voting procedures, SO MANY people seem to forget what a great country we live in, that had it become over-run with invaders 70 or so years ago, we would not be here. Yet many of these spoiled brats on TV rabbiting away how tough they have it fail to recognise without some of our forefathers we would not be here. Many of those whinging about their lot at present would not be here as their forebears would have been quickly despatched at the end of an invaders bayonet. I am not an invader but I am branded as one even though I paid taxes for 50 years to sustain many who consider myself and my forebears as invaders, at the same time not recognising my family's defence of this once great nation. So, maybe we were invaders, but not as wholly barbaric as many in the news now. We built a nation, we did not tear one down. We are too soft on all who whinge, and that includes current protesters that favour unlawful genocide. I guess the world has never really been a nice place and looks to be entering a period of doom and gloom again. I suppose with so many selfish ignoramus in our midst we just have to sit back and cop it sometimes.
Eaglemax, I agree wholeheartedly with your statement : "Had we not had a defence force we would be talking Japanese- a good possibility. Had USA not had a defence force then that would be a certainty. "
Thankyou rmoor
LUCKY LIVES
I ponder my lucky life
As I pass my middle age
And think of what I havent done
To turn another page
I havent felt the G forces
In a spittys flying suit
Bullets in mi belly
By a 109 pursuit
I havent worked a railway line
And I havent had an empty gut
Nor had my limbs amputated
In a stinkin Burmese hut
Ive done a lot of labour
In a Telstra trench
But I havent dodged a bullet
In the Somme of stench
Ive basked in the tropical sun
Without a worry or care
But I havent searched for a man trap
In the Vietnam orange air
Ive watched the desert storm
And worried about diggers fate
But I havent heard a martyr
Before he detonates
Ive marched as a rookie
To protect the human race
But I didnt return from Nam
With tomatoes in my face- a disgrace
As I ponder my lucky life
I wonder how it can be
Then salute our fallen soldiers
That made our lives so free
It only takes a moment
They gave us our lucky lives
That shaped our countrys future
And filled us with our pride
Tony (Eaglemax)
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Be nice... if I wanted my school teacher here I would have invited him...
I enlisted in May 1973, relatively immediately post Vietnam and took my discharge in March 2004.
I observed many members at the time (Vietnam Vets) with alcohol, drug and mental health issues.
I continued working for Defence as a public servant until 2015. It was obvious when I left, that the same was occurring again with the new crop of veterans.
Sadly Defence clearly has learned nothing!
To me it is no wonder that Defence has recruiting issues, even more so with the "modern" attitude to Defence wartime service from those that have never been involved.
I am a great believer in some form of national service. Either volunteer or aimed at those unemployed that do not seem too motivated to get a job. It may not necessarily require use or training with firearms but some sort of occasional military training would suffice.
They could then assist with natural disasters, fire, flood etc. Cleaning roadsides in massive gangs, carp removal etc etc.
I was in the school cadets and used to cart an old 303 home and then to parade the next morning, it teaches discipline.
Why a system like this has never been implemented is beyond me as it might influence some to join the Defence ranks or be cherry picked if showing some form of adaptability. Though I guess you only have to look at the ridiculous crop of politicians we have been blessed with in the last decade or so to understand why logic and commonsense do not prevail. This National Service could be in the form as the same payment as Newstart but with an additional allowance paid to active participants.
It is not rocket science.
I don't understand your reasoning here rmoor if people are going to be pressed into service a requirement to be able to be both safe & proficient in the use of firearms is a number one priority, I would have thought.
If State authorities request help thru the Federal Government during bushfires floods or indeed drought they will get that help.
The problem is some State authorities think they can handle these problems themselves. My Squadron was deployed to the 1977 Blue Mountains Fires in the Christmas holiday period, they did it tough everyone of them exhausted after using sweepers and rakes for days on end.
As for cleaning roadsides NO they get to do far to many menial tasks as it is, that job could be done thru Councils with the unemployed proving their worth and maybe obtaining employment with Councils or at the very least some form of recognition in doing the work.
I was in the school cadets and used to cart an old 303 home and then to parade the next morning, it teaches discipline.
Army/Navy/Airforce Cadets are still available for young people although they are not school based generally, The cadet units are supported by the branch of service they represent.
https://www.airforcecadets.gov.au/
https://www.armycadets.gov.au/
https://www.navycadets.gov.au/
My youngest son was an Airforce Cadet and after joining the ADF he continued his connection by being a military instructor at cadet unit where he was posted, after being discharged from the ADF, he become a staff member at a cadet squadron. He now is Wing Warrant Officer Firearms Instructor, where he spents most weekends on a range somewhere in the state running firearms training and shooting.
As for any form of compolsary national service will not work, you need motivated people who want to participate in national/state service, long term unemployed are not motivated to be useful unless they take it upon themselves to join a fire brigade/SES/ambo or any other community service orginazation.
........ a requirement to be able to be both safe & proficient in the use of firearms is a number one priority, I would have thought.
....
I don't think everyone needs to learn the use of firearms. The future is heading away from infantry.
Following the concept of Moor's suggestion, I believe the benefit of military training could be to bring some discipline into life for those who need it most. I use the word discipline in this context not specifically to mean obedience and behavioural correction, but to change attitudes. So for those who are happy to meander through life, being in the armed services could bring positive lifelong change.
We probably all know someone who would rather be on government benefits than working. But if that person realised it was either being gainfully employed or spend time in the military, I expect most would have a change in attitude. The time to do it is early in the working life.
I too was in the cadets at school, carried the .303, and I recall my parents expressing quite some surprise at positive changes they saw after I went on a brief cadet camp.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 11th of October 2023 11:25:28 AM
