Fly The Flag-Happy Australia Day

dorian · Guru

Fly The Flag-Happy Australia Day

yobarr · Guru

There has been much use of the word "respect", and comment that we should respect Indigenous persons.

Respect is not something that is demanded. It is earned, and in my many years working "in the bush" among and with indigenous people, and in my travels through the Kimberley and other "outback" areas I have observed nothing that would influence me to have any sort of respect for these people.

For obvious reasons I will not provide details, suffice to say that to do so would shock many. Cheers

To be respected first you must respect yourself. Cheers

msg · Guru

Why not make Australia the last Monday in January. However it falls. Then Jan 26th can mean whatever anyone wants. Actually I think it was like that years ago. We always called it the Australia Day long weekend. Should suit Australians who want a long weekend.

fwdoz · Guru

Flying proudly every single day

Dick0 · Guru

January 26th is Australia Day and always will be a day the majority of Australian citizens celebrate as our national day.

A minor minority of disgruntled activist citizens want to change or abolish our national day.

Well, bring it on with a Referendum, or a Plebiscite at the next election and have it decided upon once and for all.

Just like the "Voice".

And then after, shut the hell up!

Cuppa · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
Cuppa wrote:
....... Whilst there are understandably many aboriginal people who are hurt & angry about their being excluded from Australian society,....
Where did that come from? I am not aware of exclusion being much of an issue in recent years. Certainly no comments along that line in this forum that I recall.
"Acceptance & respect for each other, after all, is precisely what Australia Day is supposed to represent."
Is it? And here was me thinking it was a celebration for the great country we have become. Acceptance and respect is nice, but hardly the reason for the celebration. I think patriotism and unification would be better aspects to represent.

So what date would you suggest for an Australia Day that celebrates the colonisation of this country. After all, that was the major turning point that started the country progressing towards where we are now. While some may be bitter about that, and the actions taken in the past, how long does that need to go on? If you like what Australia stands for, then stop the divisiveness and celebrate as one unified country.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 27th of January 2024 12:47:45 PM

Do you not think that unification requires acceptance?

Are We Lost · Guru

Cuppa wrote:
Do you not think that unification requires acceptance?

Yes I do.

Everyone should accept that the founding of the settlement was the turning point that started the country developing into what it is now.

Also, to address some comments that 26 January is not the correct day, it bears some reading of the history as in the Wikipedia article.

Wikipedia - First Fleet

(the underlined parts are links in the Wikipedia article)

"On 26 January 1788, the Fleet weighed anchor (from Botany Bay) and sailed to Port Jackson. The site selected for the anchorage had deep water close to the shore, was sheltered, and had a small stream flowing into it. Phillip named it Sydney Cove, after Lord Sydney, the British Home Secretary. This date is celebrated as Australia Day, marking the beginning of British settlement."

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 27th of January 2024 05:11:51 PM

dogbox · Guru

if it was not the British who settled in Australia who do you think might have decided to occupy this land, or do you think it would have remained unoccupied except for an ancient people still living as they have for the last 40-50 thousand years?

dorian · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
So what date would you suggest for an Australia Day that celebrates the colonisation of this country.

The real Australia Day is the date of federation. That's when all the colonies became the Commonwealth of Australia. January 26 would be more appropriately named New South Wales Day (or New Wales Day, according to James Cook).

In fact, you are missing the point altogether by asking the wrong question. How can you be so insensitive as to expect the indigenous peoples of this country to celebrate their colonisation? To me, moving a date on a calendar is a trivial thing to do, but the ramifications would be hugely positive.

dogbox · Guru

dorian wrote:

Are We Lost wrote:
So what date would you suggest for an Australia Day that celebrates the colonisation of this country.
The real Australia Day is the date of federation. That's when all the colonies became the Commonwealth of Australia. January 26 would be more appropriately named New South Wales Day (or New Wales Day, according to James Cook).
In fact, you are missing the point altogether by asking the wrong question. How can you be so insensitive as to expect the indigenous peoples of this country to celebrate their colonisation? To me, moving a date on a calendar is a trivial thing to do, but the ramifications would be hugely positive.

i will repeat the question

if it was not the British who settled in Australia who do you think might have decided to occupy this land, or do you think it would have remained unoccupied except for an ancient people still living as they have for the last 40-50 thousand years?
ttps://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/why-australia-day-is-really-held-on-26-january/1bkbb2gyv

-- Edited by dogbox on Saturday 27th of January 2024 06:13:08 PM

Cuppa · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:
Cuppa wrote:
....... Whilst there are understandably many aboriginal people who are hurt & angry about their being excluded from Australian society,....
Where did that come from? I am not aware of exclusion being much of an issue in recent years. Certainly no comments along that line in this forum that I recall.
"Acceptance & respect for each other, after all, is precisely what Australia Day is supposed to represent."
Is it? And here was me thinking it was a celebration for the great country we have become. Acceptance and respect is nice, but hardly the reason for the celebration. I think patriotism and unification would be better aspects to represent.

So what date would you suggest for an Australia Day that celebrates the colonisation of this country. After all, that was the major turning point that started the country progressing towards where we are now. While some may be bitter about that, and the actions taken in the past, how long does that need to go on? If you like what Australia stands for, then stop the divisiveness and celebrate as one unified country.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 27th of January 2024 12:47:45 PM

Do you not think that unification requires acceptance of difference? Acceptance of culture.

Maybe everyone just needs to conform to certain beliefs & standards to qualify as Australians. ie. much the same attitudes that have prevailed for so long. Eg. 'We know better'. or 'They should be like us'.

Well I just don't buy that. If we stepped down from such arrogance there is much we could learn from those left of the worlds oldest continual culture & people. If & when we can do that we will, in my view , have much to celebrate as a nation. That we were offered an opportunity to walk that path & threw it back in their faces only displayed our immaturity as a nation.

The exclusion of Aboriginals in Australian society is blatant & obvious to anyone who opens their eyes. How else do you explain the huge gaps in health, education & employment outcomes. Laws & reality on the ground don't match. The reality is that many either shut their eyes to it and/or blame the victims.

The divisiveness, as I perceive it, comes from exclusion & from those who exclude, but we keep hearing from them that it is those who are constantly kept down, whom when they try to speak, are the ones doing the dividing. It would be laughable were it not for the very real impact on our fellow Australians who are indigenous.

Some here would accuse me of being divisive because I have a different view to them on many topics. But divisiveness is not about different views, it is about not tolerating, rather than embracing & valuing different views. Once name calling starts we are back in the sandpit with bullies exposing themselves. It would be very different if the overriding approach, instead of trying to find fault with folk who exptess different ideas, that instead areas of sameness were sought. That. I suggest is an excellent path to finding common ground & subsequently acceptance of difference. Here on this forum we are all folk interested in travelling Australia in one way or another, but all to often it seems it is the differences which which are sought out in order to 'have a go'

I disagree that Australia Day is, or ever was intended to celebrate colonisation. I accept that it is to celebrate us as a nation, & celebrate that I will, & with gusto when we as a community have matured enough to claim nation status. That will never properly happen as long as our attempts to come together are at the expense of some of us. Until then I will continue to celebrate what is good about our nation & about our country, but as a responsible citizen will also continue to speak out against the unjust way in which indigenous Australians are treated at so many levels. To do so, I suggest, displays the attributes we should all value. Caring, justice & respect.

National days are about bringing us all together as a community & celebrating that we can do that.

As to a date I have no preference.

Why would anyone be so married to the 26th?

If indeed it were intended to celebrate colonisation then all the denials to date that that is the reason for the 26th have been lies, just part of the exclusion process. I think we as as a country, or at least those who want to celebrate the dispossession of native peoples & laud a sense of victory over them, (a failed & incomplete victory/genocide as it is), need to grow up. Imagine the bullies in the playground monstering their victims & then annually celebrating that they did so. It is really quite crass thought. Intolerable to most.

I really don't see why we need to fight among ourselves about this if we all agree that we should aim to be 'one' as a community. *We* need to find a way rather than forever telling others what *they* should do.

Aboriginals are subject to the worst of it, & whether on this forum or not is hardly relevant. However that said the stupid comments along the lines of 'go back to where you come from, made by some previously & repeated again in this thread blatantly display lack of acceptance or valuing of difference, as well as an inherent arrogant belief that they somehow consider themselves 'better' & an unrealistic expectation that others should be like them.

Such nonsense directed at me is water off a duck's back because I simply have no respect for that type of behaviour. I suspect it would be far harder to deal with however if it had been directed at me & those like me for generations.

I love Australia, & I have zero regrets about coming to Australia where I have lived for longer than I lived in the country where I was raised, & because of that that I carry a sense of gratitude to my adopted country & to the country which adopted me & my family, but the way that some Australians have treated , & continue to treat those with a culture dating back longer than anyone else in the world is a huge blot on our reputation worldwide & any argument for that to continue, is not something I will ever subscribe to, & the sense of debt which accompanies my gratitude will see me continue to advocate for a fairer & more just & accepting country in order that we can grow & become the unified nation which some claim we already are.

Sadly here on this forum I have little expectation of recognition of my integrity on these issues, in fact quite the opposite. I expect that if anyone bothers to respond it will be more likely in order to argue or to attack further, than to seek common ground. If so, so be it. I am comfortable with myself & I've had my say.

Ps. I will add however that I think most folk have good hearts & I continue to try to remind myself that when folk here display unwelcome & unpleasant behaviours they are simply hiding their better sides.

Pps. AWL, I hope you will see that much of this post, replying to yours, is directed not specifically to you, but rather more broadly. I have not perceived your posts in this thread as either unpleasant nor attacking.

-- Edited by Cuppa on Saturday 27th of January 2024 07:41:58 PM

msg · Guru

To me, that weekend marked a day to celebrate the Australian way of life. What it is to be Australian. It marked the end of the Christmas Holidays and the resumption of work and the return to school. Back to the serious side of life.

-- Edited by msg on Saturday 27th of January 2024 08:00:25 PM

dogbox · Guru

dorian wrote:

Are We Lost wrote:
So what date would you suggest for an Australia Day that celebrates the colonisation of this country.
The real Australia Day is the date of federation. That's when all the colonies became the Commonwealth of Australia. January 26 would be more appropriately named New South Wales Day (or New Wales Day, according to James Cook).
In fact, you are missing the point altogether by asking the wrong question. How can you be so insensitive as to expect the indigenous peoples of this country to celebrate their colonisation? To me, moving a date on a calendar is a trivial thing to do, but the ramifications would be hugely positive.

are you referring to Captain James Cook? He like many (French, Russians Dutch, Germans Indonesians, Chinese ect ect) sailed the waters around this southern land with no prospect of doing any trade sailed on, I fail to see what he has to do with Australia day he was an explorer not a colonizer . it wasn't until nearly20 years later that Britain shipped some it's less desirable citizens off to a far away land, a problem out of site out of mind.

are the indigenous people worse off under the British or would they have been better off under some other COLINIZER or as i have stated before a multitude of COLINISERS with this country divided up into many countries speaking an assortment of languages instead of one country all basically speaking one language?

i am not saying that the aboriginals were not mistreated an some terrible thing happened but most of those thing happened, for the most part before my time and some of the things that happened with good intentions that in today's terms would be considered unacceptable, but in other parts of the world those things are still happening today.

if i am asking the wrong question what would the right question be?

as posted earlier the 26/01/1949 was the day that the NATIONALITY AND CITIZENS ACT OF 1948 came into effect and it covered everyone including aboriginals and Torres strait island people

which meant that Australians travelled with on a Australian passport not as a british subject

-- Edited by dogbox on Saturday 27th of January 2024 08:26:48 PM

Aussie1 · Guru

OK folks, in case you havn't noticed it's now January 27 so Australia Day is all over for 2024.

And a good time was had by all "true blue" Aussies flying the flag and showing appreciation for living in this, the best country in the world.

Now, to the minority group of whinging and whining among us who are very unhappy little Vegemite's not liking our Australia's special day on January 26, mark your diaries for 2025 to start this conversation all over again.

Oh, hang on, don't waste your time as the majority (same as the referendum) will agree the 26th of January is just fine with the majority.

Are We Lost · Guru

Cuppa wrote:
Do you not think that unification requires acceptance of difference? Acceptance of culture.
.......

Sorry I am not going to repeat the rest of your long post.

I can find many parts to comment on but we will never agree and I don't want to spend that much time. Much of what you say can be turned around to say the opposite. The first sentence .....

"unification requires acceptance of difference? "

Yes I agree. Why is there a difficulty from you and those you stand for to accept what the majority wants?

"How else do you explain the huge gaps in health, education & employment outcomes."

Genetics for some health issues, and the environment where some choose to live. Health, education and employment opportunities are available for all. My gripe is that healthcare for example should be available to all, and everyone treated equally based on need and circumstances, and heritage should not come into it. But it does and I have less entitlements.

As for education and employment, if I moved to a remote community, those opportunities are very limited. If I raised children in that environment, what would their outcomes be? So, being a responsible parent I would want to move to where the opportunities were better. Of course I accept that this is not an overnight fix.

"I disagree that Australia Day is, or ever was intended to celebrate colonisation."

But 26 January all those years ago is the date the settlement was founded. From the Wikipedia link I posted earlier "This date is celebrated as Australia Day, marking the beginning of British settlement". They first went to Botany Bay but did not establish a settlement.

I could continue with much more, but as I said I don't want to spend that much time on it.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 27th of January 2024 11:54:04 PM

msg · Guru

I think Cuppa has been taken over by an AI. His composition and argument seems to be just a regurgitation of stuff on the internet.

-- Edited by msg on Sunday 28th of January 2024 01:57:52 AM

Izabarack · Guru

So happy to see the response from our Australian cricket team and several AFL and NRL teams. Clearly a bunch of influential public figures calling for unity amongst Australians. Rather than support the continued division and aggression by a minority of Australians, changing the date seems to have the best chance of being a solution to the annual argument. What a great way to say I love my country by looking for a date ALL Australians can declare their pride in being Australian.

Craig1 · Guru

Iza, I do not believe a date change would ever be accepted by the noisy minority. They will always find a fault somehow. Or the next generation will invent one.

How many date changes would you endure ?

yobarr · Guru

Izabarack wrote:
So happy to see the response from our Australian cricket team and several AFL and NRL teams. Clearly a bunch of influential public figures calling for unity amongst Australians. Rather than support the continued division and aggression by a minority of Australians, changing the date seems to have the best chance of being a solution to the annual argument. What a great way to say I love my country by looking for a date ALL Australians can declare their pride in being Australian.

Hi Iza, unlike you, I have no reason to consider that the opinions of a few overpaid "sports" people are of any more relevance than the opinions of the vast majority of Australians.

How these "sports" people are seen as "influential" also is puzzling. Is this just another example of people being unable to think for themselves, preferring to be steered by "influencers" who often have their own agenda.

The ability of the vocal minority to "influence" people is disturbing. How many other dates etc do we need to change to shut them up.

As far as "invasion" is concerned, throughout history any successful invasion of a country has resulted in the invaders of that country making the rules. Not the vanquished. Cheers

Izabarack · Guru

Craig1 wrote:
I do not believe a date change would ever be accepted by the noisy minority. They will always find a fault somehow.

I get your point, but I also see the noisy majority is getting smaller. And the noisy ones are generally older folk railing against the inclusion that will come with a consensus date on which to celebrate all good things uniquely Australians. There has to be something in the solution of how to include all Australians, in the oft mentioned concept of a fair go. Our indigenous peoples have never been given a fair go by White Australia. The visible efforts by our prominent sports people is all about finding a solution to the division caused by those desperately trying to shove their preference onto all Australians. A date change does not create winners and loser, instead, everyone wins. The push is on and the younger folk dont want the conflict caused by an argument on a subject that should be about uniting Australians. My 7 and 8 year old great grandkids already have an opinion and already know something about Conflict Resolution. Yeah, its going to be generational change timeframes but words like Inclusion must appear in any positive solution to the issue.

Aussie1 · Guru

yobarr wrote:
Izabarack wrote:
So happy to see the response from our Australian cricket team and several AFL and NRL teams. Clearly a bunch of influential public figures calling for unity amongst Australians. Rather than support the continued division and aggression by a minority of Australians, changing the date seems to have the best chance of being a solution to the annual argument. What a great way to say I love my country by looking for a date ALL Australians can declare their pride in being Australian.
Hi Iza, unlike you, I have no reason to consider that the opinions of a few overpaid "sports" people are of any more relevance than the opinions of the vast majority of Australians.
How these "sports" people are seen as "influential" also is puzzling. Is this just another example of people being unable to think for themselves, preferring to be steered by "influencers" who often have their own agenda.
The ability of the vocal minority to "influence" people is disturbing. How many other dates etc do we need to change to shut them up.
As far as "invasion" is concerned, throughout history any successful invasion of a country has resulted in the invaders of that country making the rules. Not the vanquished. Cheers

Hi Chris, Spot on re the invasion issue.

And I will add "The world has become a place where entertainers and professional athletes are mistaken for people of importance."

Cheers.

Cuppa · Guru

AWL I am again responding to your post, primarily because unlike some you seem able to disagree with me without being unpleasant about doing so.
I agree that it seems most unlikely that we will reach any agreement on this issue, but I remain resolute that Australia Day is & should be a vehicle for bring all Australians together. I therefore do not accept that 'side taking ' is a reasonable approach no matter how much bigger one side is compared to another. ie. it should not be about majority rules, rather it should be about how a majority is able to incorporate what is important to the minority & still feel ok about it.
As it is we are not talking about just aboriginal folk as 'the minority'. There are large numbers of Australians who feel as I do, & were it not for the dirty tactics employed during the recent referendum it is highly likely that the no voters would have constituted the minority. However what happened happened, and what remains is a very large 'minority' of Australians who recognise there is a better way to go than where we are at currently. As a nation we would be far better off, & more settled if instead of fighting & bickering whilst steadfastly clinging to our differences we chose a path to try to include each other. The modern style of polarised argument makes this difficult, but I believe we are better than that.
Blaming genetics for aboriginal health issues is simply wrong. If it were so aboriginal people would not have been around for as long as they have. Health issues are a direct result of colonisation & the ongoing disadvantage they are subjected to in our modern society.
Expecting Aboriginal people to move away from their traditional country, to be ripped away from everything which provides meaning to their lives & expect them to be like you & me is a huge part of what has caused many of the problems that many of todays's aboriginals face, & expecting to further disconnect those from what has enabled them to survive can only compound the damage already done.
We need to find a way that is different to that & that begins with being able to value all that is aboriginal culture. To do that seems to be incredibly difficult for some Australians, even though we as a nation try to suggest otherwise to the rest of the world. Eg. The Wanjinas took pride of place at the opening of the Sydney Olympics whilst we hid the abject poverty & disadvantage that John Pilger later widely revealed to the world n 2013, & which many Australians today continue to deny & ignore.
The claim about 'less entitlements' is largely a myth used to exploit the inherent envy which accompanies a perspective focussed upon 'me' rather than 'us'. Any entitlements aboriginal folk get that you & I don't are attempts to address their disadvantage. Whether that is handled in the most effective way is debatable, & another topic all of it's own, but the reality is that you & I are not in need in the same way. Regardless of what you might believe the entitlements that aboriginal people get that you don't I doubt that you would want to swap places with them. And to add to that many of the claims made about what entitlements being aboriginal brings are deliberate falsehoods, but yes there are & have been attempts via entitlements to help, most of which have largely failed, not because there is some inherent problem with aboriginality, but because those providing the entitlements don't understand what they are are dealing with, but believe they know better. That of course was what the Voice was really intended to address.
But as you say we are unlikely to agree with each other. However I post not expecting to change your or anyone else's minds, but to hopefully model disagreement without adversarialism which I see as the only way we (as a nation) will ever be able to move forward on these issues. I have to accept that the Voice was voted down, & with that I believe we missed out on a significant opportunity. When such an opportunity comes around again, as it eventually will, I just hope that we are as a nation will be mature enough to embrace it.

As long as a winning/losing style dominates any discussion about how these sort of issues should be resolved, then we all lose, some more than others. We need to seek win/win outcomes.

-- Edited by Cuppa on Sunday 28th of January 2024 10:50:12 AM

Izabarack · Guru

Cuppa wrote:

As long as a winning/losing style dominates any discussion about how these sort of issues should be resolved, then we all lose, some more than others. We need to seek win/win outcomes.

Too many negation skills workshops in the past to ever let discussion rules set the situation for a winner and loser outcome. No loser is ever happy with the outcome. I simply dont engage with those continuously arguing a Definition of Invasion. Pretty pointless waste of energy. Win/win leaves everyone happy. Those pushing the 26th Jan will never win, why keep expending all the vitriol and division? The rapidly changing sentiment in the Australian public, and especially the younger folk, supports that assertion. Why not give it up and be a force for good?

Aussie1 · Guru

Izabarack wrote:
why keep expending all the vitriol and division?

Why not, the PM started the "division" (remember that referendum) and he is (supposed) to be our leader.

dogbox · Guru

If the referendum keeps being brought up, this will get shut down as it will get political very quickly the referendum is done, the people have voted.

the discussion is about Australia day an why it is either appropriate or inappropriate for it to be celebrated on 26 of January.

the name Australia Day came in to existence for all Australian states in 1935 at some point 60-70 years later someone took offence, now the day is marred by protests with various groups using it as a platform to push their agendas.

Are We Lost · Guru

dogbox wrote:
If the referendum keeps being brought up, this will get shut down as it will get political very quickly

Yes agree. And I wonder what is the point in continuing when opinions are so polarised and unchangeabe.... and I count mine in that too.

So, just responding briefly to Cuppa who said ..

I therefore do not accept that 'side taking ' is a reasonable approach.

.. As a nation we would be far better off, & more settled if instead of fighting & bickering whilst steadfastly clinging to our differences we chose a path to try ro include each other. The modern style of polarised argument makes this difficult, but I believe we are better than that.

But you are taking a side .. a polarised argument. If there are opposing opinions that is what we all do ... take sides.

But rather than addressing the other comments I will leave it there.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Sunday 28th of January 2024 12:31:03 PM

Cuppa · Guru

Are We Lost wrote:

So, just responding briefly to Cuppa who said ..
I therefore do not accept that 'side taking ' is a reasonable approach.
.. As a nation we would be far better off, & more settled if instead of fighting & bickering whilst steadfastly clinging to our differences we chose a path to try ro include each other. The modern style of polarised argument makes this difficult, but I believe we are better than that.
But you are taking a side .. a polarised argument. If there are opposing opinions that is what we all do ... take sides.
But rather than addressing the other comments I will leave it there.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Sunday 28th of January 2024 12:31:03 PM

I think you misunderstand. Expressing a view contrary to another's need not be side taking if seeking a win win resolution.

Side taking as I use the term refers to viewing anyone with a different view as 'opposition' whom you wish to prevail over - to beat.

And therein lies the problem we all face.

Aussie1 · Guru

dogbox wrote:
If the referendum keeps being brought up, this will get shut down as it will get political very quickly the referendum is done, the people have voted.

But do you consider it OK for the "yes" voters not happy with result still complaining about it.

That must be different

Izabarack · Guru

Aussie1 wrote:
Izabarack wrote:
why keep expending all the vitriol and division?
Why not, the PM started the "division" (remember that referendum) and he is (supposed) to be our leader.

No answer necesssary Bloke, my question was rhetorical.

dogbox · Guru

Aussie1 wrote:

dogbox wrote:
If the referendum keeps being brought up, this will get shut down as it will get political very quickly the referendum is done, the people have voted.

But do you consider it OK for the "yes" voters not happy with result still complaining about it.
That must be different

why would the YES voters be complaining?

had the question been worded different, the result could have been different?